Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (Full Version)

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31special -> Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (Sep. 11 2016 23:28:39)

Hello Everyone,

I've been playing guitar for more than 15 years and I've been learning and playing flamenco for approximately 4 years. I started learning the style using the book "The Keys to Flamenco Guitar Volume 1 by Dennis Koster". I'm trying to find other books that can take me on a path where I can progress on the flamenco guitar style.

Does anyone knows a list of good flamenco guitar books that I can use to create a training path for guitar flamenco playing?

Thanks in advanced.




Leñador -> RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (Sep. 12 2016 6:21:00)

There's only so much that can be accomplished by books. What are you trying to accomplish with your flamenco guitar playing? People tend to forget that guys like Paco, Monolo, and Cepero spent years in tablaos and fiestas honing their craft and it wasn't just hours of scales and backing tracks. It was hours of serious cante and baile that made them the players they are. Books are great but they'll only get you the end of beginner.



31special -> RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (Sep. 13 2016 23:31:19)

Yes, that's true. To learn how to speak a new language the best thing to do is to practice that new language with other people that already know how to speak the language. I wish I live in Spain but I live in Texas. Unfortunately, the Flamenco community here where I live is not big so I'm stuck with books and dvds.

I come from a classical guitar background. My tremolo, arpeggios, and picado technique are fairly good. What I struggle with is with techniques such as fast alzapua and some rasguedo patterns. Let me put it this way, I sound more than Jesse Cook than Vicente Amigo. I guess I'm asking for too much to sound like Vicente Amigo.

I guess I just need to stop trying to find the magic button on the internet and really come up with a training path my self and really setup time to practice. I will also do more research of who is into the flamenco style on my area and see if there is a meet up group.

If you have any suggestions or tips that have helped you on your playing please share.

Thanks in advanced.



estebanana -> RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (Sep. 14 2016 0:05:27)

Find a crazy Mexican and get drunk with him. Ask him where the best conjunto music is being played live. Ask the band leader if you can learn the trumpet and apprentice in the band. Be a good Texan and vote for Hillary Clinton.

That path will get you closer to God. Flamenco is like God and all roads lead to God.

If you survive 3 years of that course of learning, pick up the guitar again.

Never ever crowd source a trip to Spain to study and have "cultural linter change" that you will then package and magnanimously give to the rubes that gave you travel money. Rather than take this path one should vote for Donald Trump. It would be a good deal less idiotic. But that is not saying much, it's a pretty low bar.

Or-

You could take a few Skype lesson with Ricardo who is here on the foro, a beginning to a path, a path no other person can describe and one you can't foresee. Flamenco is not magical and like most unmagical stuff, a regular visit to a good teacher sets you up to choose your own path.

Taco trucks are really time machines.



31special -> RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (Sep. 14 2016 3:07:58)

Thanks estebanana, for the input. In which way Flamenco is like God?



rombsix -> RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (Sep. 14 2016 3:28:57)

quote:

I'm trying to find other books that can take me on a path where I can progress on the flamenco guitar style.


Oscar Herrero Paso a Paso DVD and book series.



chester -> RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (Sep. 14 2016 4:05:51)

quote:

My tremolo, arpeggios, and picado technique are fairly good. What I struggle with is with techniques such as fast alzapua and some rasguedo patterns. Let me put it this way, I sound more than Jesse Cook than Vicente Amigo. I guess I'm asking for too much to sound like Vicente Amigo.


quote:

I guess I'm asking for too much to sound like Vicente Amigo.

Ya think? [:D]

Nothing wrong with Vicente Amigo (or Jesse Cook - to each their own) but you can start out trying to emulate simpler stuff. Keep in mind that simple doesn't imply easy.

Moraito, and Jerez-style in general is more groove-focused and less technique-heavy. Learn what a remate is and how to play a few good ones -- that'll take care of the rasgueados and alzapuas.



chester -> RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (Sep. 14 2016 4:09:20)

quote:

Find a crazy Mexican and get drunk with him.

Wow. Why do you assume OP is not Mexican? Maybe grew up with an abusive alcoholic father?



Dudnote -> RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (Sep. 14 2016 5:43:29)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 31special
Thanks estebanana, for the input. In which way Flamenco is like God?

Paco de Lucia, Tomatito and Camaron de la Isla == Father, Son and The Holy Ghost.

Flamenco is not my music. It is my religion.

And that's coming from a Bayesian agnostic.



estebanana -> RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (Sep. 14 2016 7:48:37)

quote:

Wow. Why do you assume OP is not Mexican? Maybe grew up with an abusive alcoholic father?


If he is Mexican, he will find a CONJUNTO BAND MUCH SOONER!

"Training path" sounds like life coaching, flamenco is messed up, a life coach would tell you never do flamenco and then charge $175.00 an hour to tell you something so obvious.

I gave sarcasm for Free! Free life coaching in the form of sarcasm. And told him to call Ricardo, which will be the signpost to a path. Why is quasi-mystical BS so misunderstood these days?



Piwin -> RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (Sep. 14 2016 9:40:16)

I would've gone with:
Cante is the big booming voice of the Father.
Guitarra is the Son who gets sacrificed when anything goes wrong.
And Baile is the Holy Spirit you have to tiptoe around because making him upset is the one unforgivable sin.
Otherwise known as the "olé trinity"...ahem...See what I did there?... [8D]

@31special.
Manuel Granados has good books for technique and whatnot. Some of it is downloadable for free on his website.
However, I think your best option is to follow the straight and narrow estebananian path and find a teacher, even just online, for at least a few sessions. There are a few things, among others with hand position and where you're getting your strength from, that are best learned from a teacher and, especially if you're coming from a classical background, you may need to take some time to get these down or else you might be able to play all the notes of V. Amigo without getting the sound you're looking for ("this is not the sound you're looking for." waves hand)

@estebanana
The problem is that you forgot to mention quantum physics and how we are all connected by quantum consciousness. Free or not, I expect my quasi-mystical BS to contain at least one reference to quantum consciousness, or else I don't get the sense of confusion I'm looking for.



mark indigo -> RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (Sep. 14 2016 11:07:00)

quote:

Does anyone knows a list of good flamenco guitar books that I can use to create a training path for guitar flamenco playing?


In classical music the composer's score is interpreted by the musician. In flamenco the guitarist is the composer and the performance of any composition is interpreted by any transcriber who writes it down.

Therefore all the books are "wrong".

Classical teachers will tell you not to listen to other recordings or performances of a piece, but to find your own way to interpret the composer's score.
In flamenco it's the other way around.
You need to work from the performance, live, from a teacher, DVD or CD/mp3
Find a teacher (as others have said) and/or use DVD (as already recommended - Oscar Herrero) and/or CD.
If you use books that come with CD, such as Manuel Granados (as recommended) or eg. Paco Peña Toques Flamencos, try to learn from the CD, slowing it down if necessary, rather than use the book.



Dudnote -> RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (Sep. 14 2016 12:01:02)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin
Cante is the big booming voice of the Father.
Guitarra is the Son who gets sacrificed when anything goes wrong.
And Baile is the Holy Spirit you have to tiptoe around because making him upset is the one unforgivable sin.
Otherwise known as the "olé trinity"...ahem...See what I did there?... [8D]

Olé cow!! C'est sacré Piwin! ! [:D]



Kiko_Roca -> RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (Sep. 14 2016 13:41:27)

You can pay for a few lessons for the same price as a few books. The books may last you longer, but the lessons will be more valuable in the long run, imo. The other part of the path you need to get on, is to listen a lot - if not exclusively - to flamenco cante. Forget about listening to Vicente Amigo solo stuff. If you want to listen to Vicente, listen to him accompanying El Pele. Grab cante accompaniment everywhere you can get it. The Rito y Geographia series is great for that, as is Nuestro Flamenco if you don't have a budget for buying lots of albums. It doesn't matter really if you understand the lyrics. What you have to have to play effective flamenco is an ear and understanding of how the guitar relates to the song and how it fits around the melody and compás of the singer.



BarkellWH -> RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (Sep. 14 2016 14:04:29)

quote:

The problem is that you forgot to mention quantum physics and how we are all connected by quantum consciousness. Free or not, I expect my quasi-mystical BS to contain at least one reference to quantum consciousness, or else I don't get the sense of confusion I'm looking for.


Ah, yes. More "quantum woo" from the likes of Deepak Chopra.

Bill



estebanana -> RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (Sep. 14 2016 15:14:35)

The reason I mentioned Ricardo is the person to check in for lessons with is because the OP plays classical. Ricardo is one person who knows profoundly how to take someone oriented with classical guitar and show them the transition to flamenco faster than anyone I know.

I had a talk with Ricardo on skype, and he generously showed me one little move in Tangos rasgueado that I was not putting together totally to my advantage. A small detail he picked up on. I went in a worked on that detail and it made all the difference.
The path is full of little details that a good teacher can lead you into. Learn faster, better, get good teacher.



rombsix -> RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (Sep. 14 2016 16:03:28)

quote:

I had a talk with Ricardo on skype, and he generously showed me one little move in Tangos rasgueado that I was not putting together totally to my advantage. A small detail he picked up on. I went in a worked on that detail and it made all the difference.
The path is full of little details that a good teacher can lead you into. Learn faster, better, get good teacher.


I agree. Also, everything comes at its price, and at times that may be a barrier. If you can afford to take lessons from the get-go, then surely that would be fantastic. If not, then stick to good quality DVDs like Oscar Herrero's Paso a Paso series, and perhaps get a subscription to José Tanaka's or Jason McGuire's online video lessons. Once you have the means (if not already), then you can move on to regular one-on-one instruction via Skype or just monthly or so lessons to realign your path if it gets skewed with solo practice. Cheers!



BarkellWH -> RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (Sep. 14 2016 16:44:43)

As has been pointed out, your financial situation may determine whether or not you can afford lessons from a flamenco guitar teacher. My advice would be to get a teacher from the beginning, even if you have to forego other things that you can do without in order to get a good grounding from the beginning. I second Stephen's recommendation that you look into skype lessons with Ricardo.

DVDs and books are OK, but they are not nearly as useful as a first-rate instructor with whom you can work, and more importantly, to whom you can address questions and work out problems as they arise. If you can possible swing it, look into lessons with Ricardo. It is important to choose a teacher who really knows what he is doing.

Bill



Morante -> RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (Sep. 14 2016 17:34:14)

quote:


Paco de Lucia, Tomatito and Camaron de la Isla == Father, Son and The Holy Ghost.


Canal Sur has taken to showing programmes from Rito y Geografía. The other night it was Tía Anica La Piriñaca. Apart from giving a master class in cante jondo, flanked by Tío Borríco and Fernabdo Terremoto and accompanied by Manuel Morao, she also gave an interview where she opined that Camarón was not a great singer, especially por siguiriyas and that she much preferred Pansequito. I can only imagine her opinion of PDL et al, but she is only a flamenco legend while we have lots of experts here to put her right[;)]



Piwin -> RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (Sep. 14 2016 18:03:42)

I share that opinion, at least to some extent. Let's just say that Camaron has "moved" me less than others.
If it were just him than I'd have no complaint. But there's an entire generation out there trying to sound like him, even if isn't natural to them. There was a video not too long ago of El Cigala before he tried to emulate Camaron. I preferred his older voice than what he does now.



31special -> RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (Sep. 14 2016 22:40:24)

Thanks everyone for the information.



BarkellWH -> RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (Sep. 15 2016 1:12:19)

quote:

I share that opinion, at least to some extent. Let's just say that Camaron has "moved" me less than others.


I liked the younger version of Camaron much more than the older version.

Bill



minorthang -> RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (Sep. 15 2016 6:35:49)

estebanana -- your 1st message was a cracker more wit and sarcasm than black adder series1-3 , 10/10

ive bought various methods and not really learn too much due to my application,and doin' too many things.

but,

trying a few lessons here would be great idea, meeting up with anyone to exchange ideas and weekly jam, choosing just one palo at a time, forget modern stuff stick with authentic more strick compas orient pieces or sections and making them groove give them Aire and anyone will dig them , if not just thrown them a justin timberlake record



payaso -> RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (Sep. 15 2016 10:31:08)

Whenever anybody asks the foro about what books to look for as a help to learning flamenco guitar, the standard answer always seems to be something like ‘don’t buy books, they’re only for beginners, find a teacher, transcriptions are “wrong”, just learn from recordings without reading music or tab, go to Spain, it’ll take years of immersion in flamenco to get anywhere, just think how long it took Maestro Fulano’.

Is this really the most helpful advice? And is this the way the members who post this stuff really learned everything? Or could there be an element of snobbery at work here?

For the tens of thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands) who are keen to learn flamenco guitar, many will have neither the funds nor the ease of access to find a teacher. And how many good teachers are there outside Spain apart from in major urban centres?

Why, if this antipathy to books is so prevalent, is there also so much discussion on the foro about transcriptions, tabs and how to get them?

There are now several extremely helpful books on learning flamenco combined with CD’s and DVDs (just look on Amazon) which will meet the needs of many players very well – and for many years. If you can find and afford a good teacher in the flesh or online, you are unusually fortunate – and you may find that the teacher will recommend (as aids to learning material and techniques) the very books that some foro members seem to be so sniffy about.



estebanana -> RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (Sep. 15 2016 11:06:20)

No snobbery. if you can get in ten lessons on solea with a good teacher when you start books can't compare. Gitanos have passed this stuff down to each other and it works best that way.

The only thing you really have to be careful of is learning a few compases of solea and then changing teachers.

Teacher #2 will say "Ok play for me so I can see where you are and know which material to give you. " This is normal, but hers is how you can tell if teacher number two will help you or hinder you he says "Hey that is a nice falseta, can you show me again?" And then he begins to learn it while saying "Ok I need to understand how your other guy was thinking before I add to your knowledge." That guy is ripping you off. He'a grabbing your falsetas and turning the lesson around.

Now sometimes this is the price of admission to a good teacher, but often times not. If the teacher #2 says ok play for me and then cuts you off after one half compas, you might be in luck. he hates your other teachers guts and wants to make you a better player than teacher number one. The problem then is to ascertain if he has a massive ego and only wants to flaunt his big falseta dick in front of you, or if his hatred of your first teacher if not going to be an issue that he can't move beyond.

If you find a good teacher he will maybe give you a book, but most good teachers give you a choice between rote lessons and a book based course. Usually with a wink and nod towards only using the book for reference to remember the notes.

Even if you find a teacher that hates all your other teachers and calls them gay ass old farts, you may still get something from that teacher, but probably just herpes and his worst falsetas.

There is no path, except pay attention to who has your best interest at heart. So again I say learn some solea with Ricardo.



estebanana -> RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (Sep. 15 2016 11:10:12)

quote:

Canal Sur has taken to showing programmes from Rito y Geografía. The other night it was Tía Anica La Piriñaca. Apart from giving a master class in cante jondo, flanked by Tío Borríco and Fernabdo Terremoto and accompanied by Manuel Morao, she also gave an interview where she opined that Camarón was not a great singer, especially por siguiriyas and that she much preferred Pansequito. I can only imagine her opinion of PDL et al, but she is only a flamenco legend while we have lots of experts here to put her right


You're such a troll, we should go flyfishing together. But not for trout, tarpon.



Piwin -> RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (Sep. 15 2016 11:30:34)

I think you misunderstand where people are coming from. First, reading through this thread, you may have noticed that people did recommend some books, even if for the most part they did say that it would be better to get a teacher. You'll also notice that the issue of finances quickly came up and people said to "do what you can afford" basically.
To be clear, this isn't just about flamenco, at least not for me. I don't know of any instrument that is best learned out of a book and without a teacher. In fact, where I think you're wrong in your post is when you say that the opinion is "don't buy books, they're only for beginners". I think to be able to use a book without a teacher, you need to be already well down the way into learning flamenco. It's precisely when you're a beginner that you need a teacher most. Once you're at a point where you know what to look for and can to some extent be your own feedback, then learning on your own with books and tabs is much less "dangerous" (because no matter how many times I watched Nunez's Encuentro DVD, at no point does he see or hear what I'm playing. You don't get any feedback.)
It's not snobbery or antipathy towards books, they do have a role to play, but if you think anything can replace a good teacher, you're deluding yourself IMO. Only with the guitar do people think that just a book is enough. In fact, one could wonder whether there is some degree of arrogance in thinking that you can actually learn how to play without a teacher.



Leñador -> RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (Sep. 15 2016 13:22:26)

quote:

Is this really the most helpful advice? And is this the way the members who post this stuff really learned everything?

%1,000 yes. In the age of Skype there's not much excuse.
Flamenco is a language, try learning a language from a book without ever communicating with someone, your going to sound really funny.
EDIT: I recant, books and transcriptions are for people who've already had lessons. [;)][:)][:D]



BarkellWH -> RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (Sep. 15 2016 14:02:08)

quote:

Is this really the most helpful advice? And is this the way the members who post this stuff really learned everything? Or could there be an element of snobbery at work here?


I find your suggestion that the advice offered by Foro members on this thread represents an "element of snobbery" to be arrogant and a form of inverse snobbery itself. Foro members have traditionally been very generous in offering advice when asked, and the advice to work with a teacher in this case is spot-on. No one has stated that books are of no use, but working with a teacher is definitely more fruitful. And everyone has recognized that there might be financial constraints that preclude engaging a teacher. Seems to me that the Foro has fulfilled its function in offering advice in this thread.

Oh, and yes, engaging a teacher is the way I personally "really learned everything."

Bill



Morante -> RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (Sep. 15 2016 15:25:43)

quote:

You're such a troll, we should go flyfishing together. But not for trout, tarpon.


I would love to flyfish tarpon (no trolling or alcurricán as they say here) after a lifetime of salmon and trout. Anytime you want, give me a call[:D]



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