Big guitar vs small guitar (Full Version)

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f.j.w. -> Big guitar vs small guitar (Aug. 22 2016 10:46:15)

Dear Foro



I have just joined the forum. This is my first post after introducing myself in the intro section.

I am a violin maker who now wants to make himself a flamenco guitar. I have never made any guitars before, so I am completely in the dark as to where to start. The woodwork will be easy. The difficult part for me is to make decisions about the characteristics of the instrument. Spruce vs ceder, strutting systems etc.

My first question will be how big the guitar should be. What I need to know is if guitars with a longer scale length also tend to have a larger body. From an instrument making point of view it is perfectly possible to put a longer neck on a standard body, but it is also perfectly possible to make a larger body to go with the longer neck.

I have with great interest read the posts about scale length (string length). It is obviously a personal choice, and I will just have to make this decision myself. Modern flamenco guitars appears to have a scale length between 650mm and 670mm. This is a considerable difference. I know from various instrument plans that classical guitars with a 650 scale lenght will have a body length of about 485mm. So my request to my fellow forum members is this, should anyone be kind enough to assist me in my research.

Would anyone be willing to measure their guitars. Please provide the following 3 measurements:




Vibrating string length (inside of nut to middle of saddle).

Length of body.

Is the 12th fret exactly on the neck-body joint? If it is not, how far up the neck or into the body is the 12th fret.




This will help me tremendously in understanding how to think about the guitar.

Kind regards and thank you all in advance.



Frank JW



Echi -> RE: Big guitar vs small guitar (Aug. 22 2016 12:47:55)

Hello and welcomed.
My strong suggestion is to start with a guitar plan. No problem if you decide to get astray from it in some aspects and make it personal, once you know what you are doing.
I'd go for the Santos Plan drawn by David Merrin. It's quite simple in terms of doming and neck relief and the shape of that plantilla is the same used regularly by Arcangel Fernandez and Romanillos (with 650 scale).
No problem to give you the main measures (in a couple of days, as I'm not close to my place at the moment).



jshelton5040 -> RE: Big guitar vs small guitar (Aug. 22 2016 14:30:35)

Scale is normally measured from leading edge of nut to leading edge of saddle since they are ramped. It is a fairly meaningless measurement unless you know whether the fingerboard is compensated or not, for instance a 660mm scale actually measures 657.5mm on our flamenco guitars.

The 12th fret should always be at the neck-body joint.



Andy Culpepper -> RE: Big guitar vs small guitar (Aug. 22 2016 23:56:41)

Welcome to the Foro, Frank.
I typically think of the "scale length" as the distance from the nut to the 12th fret, times two. That way you're not measuring bridge compensation and calculating that as part of the scale length. But even that's not quite accurate on my guitars and some others, because I compensate the fingerboard at the nut end by shaving off about .75 mm to improve intonation. I also use a slight slant on my saddles.

On flamencos I normally use a 655 mm scale, as defined by the fret ratios, but the total vibrating string length would be about 656 counting compensation on both ends.

What you want on a classical/flamenco guitar is to have the bridge roughly centered in the lower bout, so it's only necessary to modify the body shape if the bridge would otherwise be a little too far in either direction.

With the 655 scale, or 660 I use a body length of 490mm. I do change it a bit for 640-650, down to about 486.

My 12th fret is normally right at the body join but I've also tried moving it away from the body about half a fret length, after noticing that on a Friederich guitar. As long as the soundhole edge is hitting the 19th fret where you want it to it doesn't really matter.



f.j.w. -> RE: Big guitar vs small guitar (Aug. 23 2016 7:32:42)

Thank you very much for your thoughts so far.


Eichi,

Yes I will use a plan. I have not seen the plan of the Santos that you suggest. I will get myself a copy. The measurements would still be interesting though.



John,

I am aware of the issue of compensation. This is not something that violin makers worry about, but I do understand the need on a fretted instrument. I am not concerned at this moment about 2mm discrepancy. What I would like to know is if a 670mm guitar has typically has the same body size of a 650mm guitar.

The cheap 2nd hand classical guitar that I bought has a scale of 650mm. (The string length is 651.7mm) and the body length is 485mm from the middle of the 12th fret to the end of the instrument. The 19th fret is split into 2 parts by the sound hole. The 12th fret is exactly on the body neck joint. As I understand it this is a bog standard typical guitar layout.

So what would people do if they were to make a typical layout for a 670mm guitar? Would they increase the body size to 500mm and maintain the proportions of the distances between the 12th fret, the sound hole, the bridge position and the distance from the bridge to the end of the instrument? The other solution would be to use the same body sizen of 485mm and move the bridge 10mm closer to the end of the instrument and to move the sound hole 4.5mm away from the 12th fret. Or would a typical 670mm instrument be a compromise between these 2 solutions, with a body size of lets say 492.5mm?



Andy,

I see that you do vary the body size, but you use the same body size of 490mm for a 655mm and a 660mm guitar. Also you use the same body size of 486mm for 640mm guitars and 650mm guitars. So then you must move the bridge a little up or down the instrument to accommodate. This is most interesting! If you were to make a 670mm guitar how long would the body be then?



All,

Thank you so much. This is already most useful. I have just realised one more thing. If you increase the body length, would you also increase the width of the body or would you just make the body longer? I imagine that this affects the sitting position of the player.

Are any of you aware of plans for long scale flamenco guitars, with a scale of more than 660?



Frank JW



Stephen Eden -> RE: Big guitar vs small guitar (Aug. 23 2016 8:10:02)

I wouldn't worry about it too much. I have used the same shape (490) for 640 to 660 over years. I have used a small shape(482) for 630 up to 650 I would do a 660 but no one has asked for that yet. I have also used an even smaller shape for 640 up to 660. When I was an apprentice We used our regular shape (470)for a 670 too. Sound wise they were all as good as each other, given the same shape as the body size in general will change the sound.
It really just works around the bridge placement and whether or not you like the look of the bridge centered or not.

Some builders just like the look of the bridge being placed between the widest point of the lower bout. That is also not a fixed position and can change depending on your choice of shape.

Looking at the body length and width you will notice some correlation but it really just depends on taste.



jshelton5040 -> RE: Big guitar vs small guitar (Aug. 23 2016 14:27:34)

quote:

ORIGINAL: f.j.w.
Are any of you aware of plans for long scale flamenco guitars, with a scale of more than 660?



Frank JW

Look for a Marcelo Barbero plan he frequently used 660mm scales. It's the scale we use unless a customer requests something else. I've always thought of 660mm as normal, 650mm as short and 670mm as long so it's all in how you look at it. We've built quite a few guitars at 655mm but very few at 650 or 670mm.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Big guitar vs small guitar (Aug. 23 2016 15:08:01)

quote:

I'd go for the Santos Plan drawn by David Merrin


Echi,

Who is David Merrin and is his plan available to purchase on the US market?

Could you tell me what year this was done and how many fan braces it has?

Thanks..



RobJe -> RE: Big guitar vs small guitar (Aug. 23 2016 15:31:16)

quote:

Who is David Merrin and is his plan available to purchase on the US market? Could you tell me what year this was done and how many fan braces it has?


You can contact him directly with these questions.

http://www.davidmerringuitars.com/plans.html

Rob



RobJe -> RE: Big guitar vs small guitar (Aug. 23 2016 15:39:31)

Some flamenco guitars that passed my way and I measured for some reason.

Rob



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Leñador -> RE: Big guitar vs small guitar (Aug. 23 2016 16:09:27)

Have you owned all those at one time or another Rob??



Stephen Eden -> RE: Big guitar vs small guitar (Aug. 23 2016 16:49:05)

cool list but it might be worth pointing out that the upper and lower labels are the wrong way around



RobJe -> RE: Big guitar vs small guitar (Aug. 23 2016 17:18:47)

quote:

cool list but it might be worth pointing out that the upper and lower labels are the wrong way around


I realised this just as I posted it!

Rob



RobJe -> RE: Big guitar vs small guitar (Aug. 23 2016 17:48:14)

quote:

Have you owned all those at one time or another Rob??


Not all - just 11 of them. Parramon 60, Alvarez 62, VIuda Sobrinos de Esteso 65, Ramirez 68, Reyes 78, Ariza 88, Bellido 90, Bernal 93, Duran 95, Bellido 96, Conde A26 03.

Rob



f.j.w. -> [Deleted] (Aug. 24 2016 8:23:55)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Aug. 24 2016 8:24:20



f.j.w. -> RE: Big guitar vs small guitar (Aug. 24 2016 8:30:33)

Dear All

Thank you so much for this info! It has helped me a lot in my understanding of guitar culture already. It is like the viola, you can compromise as you wish. Very unlike the violin where every deviation from the standard is a mistake.

Especially thank you RogJe for the measurements. It is exactly what I had hoped for.


Kind regards FJW



Echi -> RE: Big guitar vs small guitar (Aug. 24 2016 16:43:30)

quote:

Echi,

Who is David Merrin and is his plan available to purchase on the US market?

Could you tell me what year this was done and how many fan braces it has?


David Merrin is a British luthier, a Romanillos pupil who takes care of the Granary guitar collection.
He made a plan of a '34 Santos Hernandez from that collection.
The plan is not made with CAD, is well detailed and this '34 guitar is very representative of the last work of Santos IMHO.
This guitar is made with one of the most interesting bracing pattern used by Santos, kind of a conjunction with the early work of Marcelo Barbero.
In my case the plan had some wrong building notes (actually the notes were referring to a guitar of Domingo Esteso) but Merrin added an A4 page with the right one attached.



Andy Culpepper -> RE: Big guitar vs small guitar (Aug. 25 2016 0:07:19)

quote:

Andy,

I see that you do vary the body size, but you use the same body size of 490mm for a 655mm and a 660mm guitar. Also you use the same body size of 486mm for 640mm guitars and 650mm guitars. So then you must move the bridge a little up or down the instrument to accommodate. This is most interesting! If you were to make a 670mm guitar how long would the body be then?


As others have mentioned, moving the bridge up or down a few mm is not a problem. If building at 670 I would have to check to see if the bridge placement "looks odd" on my normal body size but I'm guessing I would keep it at 490.



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