Pegs (Full Version)

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peter18337 -> Pegs (Jun. 19 2016 21:30:15)

I'm new around here and since there are a lot of luthiers on this site, I'd like to throw out a question for general speculation regarding pegs. I'm very partial to pegs. In fact the three guitars that I currently own, two Ramirez and one Conde, they all have pegs and, frankly, I wouldn't own one without pegs. But the thing that interests me is that, given how meticulously, how carefully, and how beautifully these guitars are made with such attention to detail, how crumby the pegs are. Now I can't speak about ALL guitars with pegs but an awful lot that I've come across have poor quality pegs. What happened to those luthiers standards for quality and aesthetics when it came to the pegs? Are they not part of the guitar? Are they not out there for everyone to see and of course for the guitarist to operate? ( I'm not including the new "mechanical" pegs---they're in a different category).
When I first brought my Conde back from Spain, the pegs were so ugly, so ill-fitting, so poorly made, that I couldn't stand it. So I went to a violin maker in New York (where I was then living at the time) and asked him to retrofit my pegs with his which were magnificent. Well, after looking down his nose at me and especially the guitar (after all, he was a violin maker) he reluctantly agreed to do it. The pegs he used were from Germany and they were absolutely gorgeous: slightly longer, beautifully finished ebony with a very comfortable grip with a nicely finished mother of pearl dot in the center of the grip set into a tiny brass ring. The luster and shine of the wood was perfect. I couldn't be happier and I thought , 'Why aren't the guitar makers doing this?'
So there in is my question----Why aren't the guitar makers doing this?



jshelton5040 -> RE: Pegs (Jun. 19 2016 21:45:41)

Some of us do.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Pegs (Jun. 19 2016 21:56:17)

It's not a question of making or ordering great looking pegs, it's a matter of cost.

If you want to spend 300 to 500 dollars and up for a set, then these are available.

Years ago I sold a set made by a fellow in Oregon for 300 dollars. And the last set I used was the mechanical type, which was fine for most players.

Most likely, you can order a set from Germany and provide them to a repairman to change out for you, if you are not worried about the cost.

An example of some fancy looks:

http://thefiddleshop.net/carved_tuning_pegs_violin.asp



jshelton5040 -> RE: Pegs (Jun. 19 2016 22:42:10)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

It's not a question of making or ordering great looking pegs, it's a matter of cost.

If you want to spend 300 to 500 dollars and up for a set, then these are available.

Years ago I sold a set made by a fellow in Oregon for 300 dollars. And the last set I used was the mechanical type, which was fine for most players.

Most likely, you can order a set from Germany and provide them to a repairman to change out for you, if you are not worried about the cost.

Sorry Tom but I must disagree. Here's a link to LMII ebony pegs which cost less than a nice set of tuners:
https://www.lmii.com/products/mostly-not-wood/tuning-machines/classical-guitar-tuners/flamenco-violin-pegs

Years ago I had a bunch of ebony pegs made to my dimensions. I ended up with two pasteboard boxes full for a minimal cost. After almost fifty years we're down to 14 sets and they're still beautiful. The trick to nice pegs is someone who cares about installing them correctly and pays attention to detail. It isn't rocket science...just basic woodworking. Putting a dot in the end is a simple task needing nothing more than a drill press and centering jig.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Pegs (Jun. 19 2016 22:45:19)

I think he was talking about a more ornate carved button and such, not just a plain good working peg.

http://thefiddleshop.net/item.asp?PID=855

But if he just means a good working viola peg with a white dot then most guitar makers who work with flamenco guitars can do that.



Stephen Eden -> RE: Pegs (Jun. 20 2016 13:44:20)

Hand made pegs are not that expensive either. I get mine from a chap called Bruce Brooks who will make the size to your spec. Last time I got them I have a set of 6 for about £36 pounds. They were perfect out of the box.

I've only ever included pearl dot's if that's what was on order.



Ricardo -> RE: Pegs (Jun. 20 2016 20:49:15)

The best pegs I ever had in my hands were on an old Reyes. The pegs were doped up pretty good, very smooth. But after all still a pain in the butt unlike machines. I have to say I don't think I have ever experienced actually good pegs as your are all describing, in fact I dont' think they exist. [:D]. Futher still, these so called mechanical pegs I have come across also suck pretty bad. Can't fine tune with any of em. I admit they all look very cool, but for me it's machines.

Ricardo



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Pegs (Jun. 20 2016 21:48:43)

The pegs on my '67 Ramirez blanca were villainous. I had them replaced with machines by Kenny Hill's shop when I stopped over in San Francisco on the way back to Texas from the Central Pacific one year.

The best pegs I ever experienced were the ebony ones on a blanca made by the great Mexico City luthier Juan Pimentel. I don't think he made many guitars with pegs, but those were the best I ever used. I still had pegs on my Ramirez blanca at the time.

The friend to whom the Pimentel belonged could fine tune with the pegs. He didn't use conventional peg dope on them. Instead he used ground rosin, made from the sticks you would use on a violin bow. When he had the pegs set up just right, when you turned them with just the right amount of force, they would slip just a tiny, but predictable amount. That's how my friend fine tuned.

Sabicas played guitars with pegs, and played pretty well in tune. But he used a capo a lot of the time. He would get in the ball park with the pegs, then fine tune by pulling on the strings between the bridge and the capo to go flat, or pushing on the string between the nut and the peg to go sharp.

Pegs look cool. Another advantage is that fewer people will ask to play your guitar. But I'm with Ricardo. Machines are a lot easier and more predictable.

RNJ



jshelton5040 -> RE: Pegs (Jun. 20 2016 22:28:09)

I had a Ramirez with pegs when I was first learning to be a guitar maker. The pegs were crudely made of some kind of rosewood and could have been installed better by a chimpanzee. I would have put new pegs on it but I hated the guitar so much that I didn't want to waste any time working on it. The craftsmanship on the guitar other than the pegs was exquisite but it was total junk. I try not to say anything negative about other makers and in fairness I have played some wonderful Ramirez guitars but in the late 60's and early 70's when Segovia and Sabicas were making them so successful they made some real dogs. I suppose that's an inevitable result when a legitimate maker tries to go into mass production.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Pegs (Jun. 20 2016 23:39:07)

During the late 1960s and the 1970s I bought around a dozen Ramirez 1a classicals from Jose III at his shop in Madrid at various times and sold them in the USA at a considerable profit, while still undercutting the U.S. dealers. Jose III usually had a half dozen 1a's to choose from in the shop. I picked out ones that I liked. I don't remember any real dogs. Ones I didn't particularly like might have been the choice of better players than I.

The '67 cedar/cypress blanca that my wife gave me when it was new was my favorite flamenca for some years, despite the pegs. During that time a friend had a '73 Conde spruce/cypress media luna. It was dead as a doornail when it was new, with all the tone quality of a yellow pine plank, but after two or three years I liked it as well as the Ramirez. I never convinced him to sell it to me.

Since those days I have played a few flamencas I like better than the Ramirez. Some, like the '82 Arcangel Fernandez, I definitely prefer. But when I get out the '67 Ramirez, after getting used to it for 15 or 20 minutes, I always think, "This is, in fact, a very nice guitar."

RNJ



tri7/5 -> RE: Pegs (Jun. 21 2016 15:19:35)

I want to love traditional pegs so much. I like the light feel and look. They drive me crazy though.



Flamingrae -> RE: Pegs (Jun. 22 2016 11:28:22)

quote:

So there in is my question----Why aren't the guitar makers doing this?


Like John says, a lot of us are. Unfortunately, quite a lot of guitars from Spain were made using super thick pegs and mismatched reamers. Properly prepared pegs with a matched reamer will give a good fit. Pegs are not everyones cup of tea and that is an arguement had many times here - lets not go there.
Lots of options - buy off the shelf ready made for a modest price. What I do is buy a respectable basic unit and doctor it up. I usually make the grip a bit more concave for a nice touch. I add a 3mm abalone dot in the top and I put a tapered waist where the string is so the diameter turning is smaller still. Finish off with a poly laquer everwhere but on the fit into the headstock.
I was a violin player and a jeweller in a former life so this aspect of guitar making/playing is not an issue.



Echi -> RE: Pegs (Jun. 22 2016 19:27:20)

I had a nice guitar from Granada with ebony pegs.
Eventually I ended up routing the slots and installing a set of Alessi tuning machines.
Minimal differences soundwise if any but now it's a pleasure to tune the guitar while before it was not.

Technically speaking the problem is that the cedar (used for the neck) is a soft wood which doesn't offer a solid base or a nice grip. Add to this that some rosewoods can be a little oily and you get the point.
The Bellidos and other makers often add a second headstock rosewood plate in the back and this makes a kind of difference.

IMHO Ramirez made their best guitars before '65. At least they were more consistent and the makers were people of the stature of Bernabe, Contreras, Manzanero, Martinez etc.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Pegs (Jun. 22 2016 21:19:50)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echi

IMHO Ramirez made their best guitars before '65. At least they were more consistent and the makers were people of the stature of Bernabe, Contreras, Manzanero, Martinez etc.


My '67 Ramirez blanca has the initials A.M. (Antonio Martinez) on the heel of the neck. Some dealers have told me this makes it more valuable. Others have said it makes no difference, but the opinion of "more value" seems to have grown in prevalence over the last couple of decades.

My experience trying quite a few classical 1a's at the Madrid shop during the late 1960s through 1970s was that there was about as much variation within the production of one maker (including Martinez, Tezanos, etc.) as there was across the whole range of makers. However, guitar preferences notoriously vary from one player to the next. I never heard of the preference for some makers until the late 1970s, early 1980s, but Austin was a relatively isolated guitar scene in those days.

RNJ



Echi -> RE: Pegs (Jun. 23 2016 6:26:14)

I don't know if it is commercially more valuable or not.
On one side, the makers at Ramirez were faithfully following the same project, on the other side, I'd prefer to have a guitar made by the hands of a great luthier.
In the case of Ramirez III, I think the early guitars were lighter, just spruce topped and produced in a small number and with great care.
In the '60 many pro were using Ramirez. As a matter of fact the pre-cedar Ramirez are quite sought after today and for a good reason IMHO.
Later on Ramirez, being successful with classical guitars, never developed their flamenco guitar model following Conde.
Somehow some of those Madrid makers were a little despising the local flamenco crowd.
Not a mistery that the same Arcangel refused to make again flamenco guitars for decades...



Stephen Eden -> RE: Pegs (Jun. 23 2016 8:58:44)

Echi is right that Cedar is a softer wood than the peg that goes into it but it's also the end grain vs long grain that causes uneven wear in the holes and to the pegs. I guess the fact they are known as friction pegs shouldn't come as a surprise that they wear out over time. Therefore maintenance is required for long term smooth operation.



jshelton5040 -> RE: Pegs (Jun. 23 2016 13:57:39)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SEden

I guess the fact they are known as friction pegs shouldn't come as a surprise that they wear out over time.

So do tuners.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Pegs (Jun. 23 2016 19:09:24)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echi


In the case of Ramirez III, I think the early guitars were lighter, just spruce topped and produced in a small number and with great care.
In the '60 many pro were using Ramirez. As a matter of fact the pre-cedar Ramirez are quite sought after today and for a good reason IMHO.

Later on Ramirez, being successful with classical guitars, never developed their flamenco guitar model following Conde.


Richard Brune notes the influence of Marcelo Barbero (padre) on Ramirez III's blanca design. http://www.rebrune.com/jose-ramirez-iii-1960/ In his book Jose III attributes the static design of his flamenco instruments to the extreme conservatism of flamenco players, who resisted any design changes--according to Ramirez.

quote:

Somehow some of those Madrid makers were a little despising the local flamenco crowd.
I never saw anyone I suspected of being Gitano, nor heard anyone play flamenco (other than myself) in the shops of Ramirez, Manzanero, Bernabe or Contreras, though all of them made flamenco guitars. On the other hand, at Conde Hermanos the predominant genre was flamenco. This contrasts with the accounts of the leading guitarists of both genres hanging out at Manuel Ramirez's shop, to which some of the classical influence upon flamenco in the 1920s has been attributed.

quote:

Not a mistery that the same Arcangel refused to make again flamenco guitars for decades...


I'm sure you know that for many years all of Arcangel's output was contracted to a Japanese dealer. Presumably Arcangel's production was driven by the demand of the Japanese market. My 1982 Arcangel blanca, though labeled, signed by Arcangel on the underside of the top and autheticated by Brune, has no serial number. According to Brian Cohen it was built for a non-Japanese collector, thus the lack of serial number. According to Brune a few others exist, made for non-Japanese collectors or players whom Arcangel particularly favored.

RNJ



Echi -> RE: Pegs (Jun. 23 2016 23:04:02)

Clearly Madrid is a relatively small place and there was a kind of friendship/competition between guitar makers working there.
A well known former Ramirez oficial told me that the dream of everybody down there was to be able to make a guitar for Segovia or some other famous classical player, both for personal prestige and for commercial reasons.
That's also why Ramirez at some stage stopped the practice of stamping the initial of the maker inside the heel.

When Arcangel sold all his production to the Japaneses He was already making very few flamenco guitars.
Casa Arcangel Fernandez at a certain stage was also a shop, selling guitars of the same Arcangel, Manzanero and Manuel Caceres - all classical guitars. Marcelino Barbero started just years later.
Arcangel was a talkative guy and told a common Italian friend that he decided to stop making flamenco guitars as he wanted to be appreciated just as a classical guitar maker and btw very few flamenco players could afford the money for his guitars...
I believe too that your guitar was made as an exception for a collector.

I owned a flamenco guitar made by Manuel Caceres made with the woods of Fernandez and his very same design



jshelton5040 -> RE: Pegs (Jun. 24 2016 1:04:51)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echi

A well known former Ramirez oficial told me that the dream of everybody down there was to be able to make a guitar for Segovia or some other famous classical player, both for personal prestige and for commercial reasons.

We've made guitars for some famous classic players and the resulting sales figures were less than spectacular. If you don't love building guitars it's much better to go into computer programming or some other lucrative profession.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Pegs (Jun. 24 2016 1:21:37)

quote:

We've made guitars for some famous classic players and the resulting sales figures were less than spectacular. If you don't love building guitars it's much better to go into computer programming or some other lucrative profession.


I made a magnificent Santos guitar style for Robert Guthrie of Dallas in 1986 and he concertized with for about 9 years. He even wrote a beautiful reference without reservation but it had no effect on sales that I know of. Sometime these things don't pan out but the redeeming factor was that he paid me for the guitar :-)

And I agree with you that not many people have become rich building guitars..except perhaps, Bob Taylor.



Ricardo -> RE: Pegs (Jun. 24 2016 8:50:42)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SEden

Echi is right that Cedar is a softer wood than the peg that goes into it but it's also the end grain vs long grain that causes uneven wear in the holes and to the pegs. I guess the fact they are known as friction pegs shouldn't come as a surprise that they wear out over time. Therefore maintenance is required for long term smooth operation.



That makes sense. Machines wear out too. I learned the hard way...change the tuning machines once with every second golpeador replacement! [8D]



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Pegs (Jun. 24 2016 12:07:17)

I used the mechanical pegs once in my latest build and it was a head ache to get them set right. But once the set up was correct they worked beautifully.

This peg eliminates any wear against the cedar head, as it turns with-in its mechanism, not the wooden head.

I don't know about the wear-ability of the pegs but if they are lightly glued into the head stock, then it would be easy enough to break them loose for replacement.

However, I'm still a machine guy since it is much better to sell guitars to those who require them, instead of taking the chance of a slow sale with pegs.



RobJe -> RE: Pegs (Jun. 24 2016 13:49:41)

quote:

Bellidos and other makers often add a second headstock rosewood plate in the back and this makes a kind of difference


Here is a picture. These are by far the best working pegs I have owned. I don’t know if the twin rosewood plates play a useful part in this.

Rob



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David LaPlante -> RE: Pegs (Jun. 27 2016 13:43:12)

Another big thumbs-up for Bruce Brook in the UK. Bruce has made excellent Torres and Cadiz style replicas as well as early C.F. Martin style pegs for me in Ebony, rosewood and (provided by me ) bone.

He also has a nice assortment of standard styles available.
They are usually less than $100. set.



Echi -> RE: Pegs (Jun. 28 2016 9:15:31)

I was curious and so I checked his website and I must say he looks very skilled.
Nonetheless I noticed he makes also a funny shape.
This is what they mean when they say "I have guitar with coj**es" .



DavRom -> RE: Pegs (Jul. 2 2016 11:43:40)

I really like that look. the headstock on my guitars look half naked now. lol

quote:






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Echi -> RE: Pegs (Jul. 3 2016 17:44:01)

This is my Lopez Bellido straight after the conversion from pegs to tuning machines.
The back rosewood layer looks very nice even with the tuners.
The tuners there are Alessi (still work in progress).



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Tom Blackshear -> RE: Pegs (Jul. 6 2016 12:56:26)

Very nice conversion. I prefer machines as they sell much better than pegs.

It's just a matter of what the market wants.

I don't take orders now, just build spec. and sell as is

Nice job.



Morante -> RE: Pegs (Jul. 6 2016 14:43:25)

quote:

This is my Lopez Bellido straight after the conversion from pegs to tuning machines.


What a pity[:@]



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