RE: sheet music to share?

RE: sheet music to share? (Full Version)

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Piwin -> RE: sheet music to share? (Jun. 20 2016 3:32:16)
quote: so tabs or scores are effectively useless I disagree. Tabs/scores have been a huge help to me in learning flamenco pieces. They are mainly just a baseline that I can amend/ reinterpret according to what I hear or know about the palos etc. etc., but it's a useful baseline nonetheless. I'll agree that people shouldn't focus too much on tabs/scores to the detriment of learning by ear, but I wouldn't go so far as to say they're useless. But that's just me and what has worked me.

Leñador -> RE: sheet music to share? (Jun. 20 2016 4:06:31)
Tabs/sheet only became useful to me when I got to a certain level of understanding, in the beginning they steered me wrong cus I was just reading the paper, not grooving it.

Ricardo -> RE: sheet music to share? (Jun. 20 2016 6:15:55)
Most guitar players can't read even if they say they can. There is nothing inherently wrong with score, but the amount of effort to put in all the details really needed are just not to be found. So it become a tool as any other that a knowledgeable student can make use of or not. Simply put...the guy who can make perfect good use of a score or tab doesn't really need it.

mark indigo -> RE: sheet music to share? (Jun. 20 2016 12:10:12)
quote: quote:so tabs or scores are effectively useless quote: I disagree. you quoted me out of context. tabs or scores are effectively useless in the context of the preceding paragraph.... quote: when I started learning flamenco I thought I would need to learn to read music. it has taken me 20 years to learn that if I can't learn something by ear and memory then I won't be able to play it anyway, at least not at speed with correct rhythm etc. so tabs or scores are effectively useless if you find them useful, use them

Piwin -> RE: sheet music to share? (Jun. 20 2016 15:33:54)
@Leñador That makes sense. I suppose theoretically someone could learn a whole piece from tabs/scores without even knowing what compas is, so miss out on the whole articulation of the piece. Tabs can't compete with a good teacher, that's for sure. @mark indigo Oh, sorry about that. I guess it did sound like I disagreed with the fact that you hadn't found tabs/scores useful, which would be a weird thing to say. Obviously it all depends on what works best for each person. I just meant that I myself had found them useful, as opposed to what you experienced. Last year, in a group class setting, I witnessed a foreign (non-Spanish) music student bang his head against how music is taught in the flamenco world. I guess he'd been so accustomed to learning "visually" with scores as a crutch that he had never developed the ability to learn by just listening and watching someone else play. After insulting the teacher, saying he wasn't a "real musician" just because he couldn't write music or give him the proper musical terms, he left in a tantrum. He clearly wasn't made of the flamenco cloth that one.

El Kiko -> RE: sheet music to share? (Jun. 22 2016 17:02:15)
I think its best to learn from a teacher or by ear / eye from a video that is how its always done ...kinda word of mouth almost ...as to the score , i can read just fine but i would use it more (if available ) to double check certain sections perhaps of a piece i was learning by ear ... if i didnt need it ..then fine , if there was a doubt then its written down for me to be certain. All written music is subject to interpretation , some more than others , and that choice may vary according to the player .. I dont really agree with Ricardo's earlier point of quote: '''''score +tab is the ONLY way you encounter accurate transcriptions'''' I would think a video and some written back up in a form that you want would be the way to be as accurate as possible ... I assume your own transcriptions are as accurate as you want them to be ?./..

Ricardo -> RE: sheet music to share? (Jun. 23 2016 4:00:27)
quote: ORIGINAL: El Kiko I think its best to learn from a teacher or by ear / eye from a video that is how its always done ...kinda word of mouth almost ...as to the score , i can read just fine but i would use it more (if available ) to double check certain sections perhaps of a piece i was learning by ear ... if i didnt need it ..then fine , if there was a doubt then its written down for me to be certain. All written music is subject to interpretation , some more than others , and that choice may vary according to the player .. I dont really agree with Ricardo's earlier point of quote: '''''score +tab is the ONLY way you encounter accurate transcriptions'''' I would think a video and some written back up in a form that you want would be the way to be as accurate as possible ... I assume your own transcriptions are as accurate as you want them to be ?./.. Out of context, sure. But my point was about someone wanting standard notation scores, INSTEAD of tabs....not, "what's the BEST way to learn flamenco guitar?". With the exception of classical guitar, any guitar student should be weary about finding a transcription of serious guitar music that is not including tablature. There are of course some few exceptions. Vast majority of non tab scores are not "note for note" versions, rather, piano style arrangements in order for the composer to secure (c) royalties.

El Kiko -> RE: sheet music to share? (Jun. 23 2016 17:40:21)
If you say so ....but the majority of music i have is guitar music written for the guitar , and is correct as far as i can tell , I do, however , have one very old pamphlet type thing from the 50s of Carlos Montoya (Flamenco Fire ) music that is definitely written by a piano player , it is almost hilariously wrong and hasn't taken into account the capo . so some things are actually written in Ab instead of E with the capo on 4 ...imagine the fingerings for that .... as for TAB it could be there or not but, in any case , should not affect the accuracy of the transcription as it is merely a reflection of the music ,,note for note , transcribed into a different format ...I dont get why one should be wary of a music score without TAb , as if it was going to be different, and seems to suggest a lower quality of transcription by omitting TAB ...i dont think so at all, but perhaps thats just me .. ... Sometimes i look at written music in books in shops and although im not playing it , except in my head a bit , i can usually see if its an accurate transcription or not ...A lot of people do that ... Going back to the original first post and question ....it was looking for ......flamenco sheet of music (if possible, no tabs)...... which i think is a reasonable request ...theres lots around, and I assume he is looking in other places and not pinning all his hopes on this foro...as with everything online ..he will find the whole range of good and bad , useful and useless , its up to him to sift through it and decide what he want to use for himself ...

Paul Magnussen -> RE: sheet music to share? (Jun. 23 2016 19:45:03)
quote: I do, however , have one very old pamphlet type thing from the 50s of Carlos Montoya (Flamenco Fire ) music that is definitely written by a piano player […] That was about par for the ’50s. Same with the early Sabicas and Escudero books put out by Hansen. The first decent books (as I recall) were John Magarshack’s Pepe Martínez transcriptions; and Joseph Trotter’s revised S & E stuff, in the early ’60s. (I remember receiving a book of Manitas de Plata transcriptions for review, once. Above one passage, it said Strike the strings with the tips of the fingers. What were you supposed to use for the other notes, your feet? That would have explained a lot…)

El Kiko -> RE: sheet music to share? (Jun. 23 2016 20:41:30)
found it .... 1957 copyright by Ampco music inc , New York and Sherwin music company , London W1 its actually not black but a kind of strange pinky colour , that was my scanner set up wrong ...however ... and as you see cost 4 (shillings ) and 6 pence ...not sure how much that is ... Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Piwin -> RE: sheet music to share? (Jun. 23 2016 21:50:50)
There are a few pieces transcribed (and available free of charge) by Claude Worms with both tabs and staff notation here : http://www.flamencoweb.fr/spip/spip.php?rubrique30 The site is in French but isn't hard to navigate (just follow "transcription). There is also a section with tabs/scores for a few falsetas by French flamenco guitarists.

Ricardo -> RE: sheet music to share? (Jun. 24 2016 8:33:11)
quote: ORIGINAL: El Kiko If you say so ....but the majority of music i have is guitar music written for the guitar , and is correct as far as i can tell , I do, however , have one very old pamphlet type thing from the 50s of Carlos Montoya (Flamenco Fire ) music that is definitely written by a piano player , it is almost hilariously wrong and hasn't taken into account the capo . so some things are actually written in Ab instead of E with the capo on 4 ...imagine the fingerings for that .... as for TAB it could be there or not but, in any case , should not affect the accuracy of the transcription as it is merely a reflection of the music ,,note for note , transcribed into a different format ...I dont get why one should be wary of a music score without TAb , as if it was going to be different, and seems to suggest a lower quality of transcription by omitting TAB ...i dont think so at all, but perhaps thats just me .. ... Sometimes i look at written music in books in shops and although im not playing it , except in my head a bit , i can usually see if its an accurate transcription or not ...A lot of people do that ... Going back to the original first post and question ....it was looking for ......flamenco sheet of music (if possible, no tabs)...... which i think is a reasonable request ...theres lots around, and I assume he is looking in other places and not pinning all his hopes on this foro...as with everything online ..he will find the whole range of good and bad , useful and useless , its up to him to sift through it and decide what he want to use for himself ... So you have rock and metal scores for guitar that are not in tab but note for note from recordings? I am sure you are talking about OTHER guitar music, my point is not that tab being absent does not guarantee a bad score, but rather, it is not the norm. I admitted there can be exceptions, I found it ODD a metal guitar guy was hunting for NON TAB scores specifically. Tab being included with a score (or in place of standard notation) is arbitrary OTHER than it indicates you might be dealing with an accurate note for note rendering vs one as your MOntoya book (which is actually the NORMAL type of thing for the majority of the music publishing world of guitar based music). YOU can pick a book up and look through and determine it's accuracy before purchase, but most students can't. Hence, as I stated before, people as yourself don't even need the score to learn the music properly, it's just a tool.

Sr. Martins -> RE: sheet music to share? (Jun. 24 2016 8:38:56)
I always thought that people only cursed notation + TAB for pure snobbery. Is there any other reason? Is TAB like cryptonite or something? [8D]

Piwin -> RE: sheet music to share? (Jun. 24 2016 13:06:45)
quote: I always thought that people only cursed notation + TAB for pure snobbery It's like the flamenco tradicional snobbing flamenco moderno. See, staff notation appeared around 1000AD, whereas tabs have only been around since 1300AD... In 2500, I'll bet there will still be some people saying that pre-PDL flamenco was so much better...

minorthang -> RE: sheet music to share? (Jun. 24 2016 13:26:11)
hildergard von bingen tells me they were a wee bit lack laster with rhythmic notation that time

Piwin -> RE: sheet music to share? (Jun. 24 2016 13:36:07)
[:D]

Kiko_Roca -> [Deleted] (Jun. 24 2016 14:13:14)
Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jun. 24 2016 20:41:57

Paul Magnussen -> RE: sheet music to share? (Jun. 24 2016 16:33:17)
There are several aspects to this that no one has so far mentioned. As someone who did all his transcriptions in tab for 25 years and then switched, I have some experience of both sides. Pro • Tab is much quicker and easier to write if you haven’t got a computer handy. • It’s independent of tuning. • It takes less space on the page (no leger lines) Anti • It forces you to work out fingerings at the same time time as you transcribe the notes. If you get one fingering wrong, then the chances are that the next one will also be wrong, leading to a cascade effect. I see this now in my transcriptions from the ’70s of Lucía pieces that are now on YouTube (such as Mantilla de feria). Whereas if you transcribe in staff, all you have to worry about first time through is the notes. When you go through again to do the fingering, you know what’s coming next, and so your fingerings are going to make more sense (I’m not saying you can’t still make mistakes, of course). Tab (including lute tab) conventionally only uses one set of time-values. This makes explicit part-writing impossible, so the voice-leading in lute-music is educated guesswork (it was wrong in the first published transcription of A Varietie of Lute Lessons, for example, having been done—I believe—by a keyboard player). Personally, I use both up and down stems, which solves the problem to a large extent—sufficiently for Flamenco, anyway. (For something like a Bach Fugue—or even a Fantasia by Francesco—two parts aren’t adequate; but Finale now allows you to print the voices in different colours, which is something I’ve done quite often.) Just my opinion.

El Kiko -> RE: sheet music to share? (Jun. 24 2016 17:33:48)
No no no .. this is not a thread about TAb vs notation ,that one has been done and done and done , and by the same people ..I also find it annoyingly remiss of Martins to bring it back , again ,,... What we were talking about was the accuracy of transcriptions , in any form , maintaining there was no reason for a transcription with TAb to be any more , or less, accurate than a transcription without ...as they should both be the same thing , in 2 different forms ... Ricardo No I wouldnt say I have rock and metal scores that are notated , they usually are in TAb alone or maybe both and turn up in some guitar magazine , the latest solo from ...etc ... I have flamenco stuff ..old but not as much as the Montoya joke , stuff by Manuel Cano ..transcription by Jose Corrales, for example and no TAb there ...accurate I believe ..and some flamenco books written without TAb.. As to other music , well yes there is classical guitar music , which tends to be notated as most classical players learn to read as they develop musically .. But a lot of jazz stuff , for example transcriptions of Django , by Stan Ayeroff, for example ... definalty good , Joe Pass and the like .. Also not sure if greatusername is a metal guy , as you put it , and yes that would be odd ..unless he was , perhaps a reformed classical player ... I do agree that the score is a tool , assuming you have heard the music first , and that is why you want the sheet music version .. so , yes you would be correct in saying that , as it would be impossible to read it without using the pre-listened-to-music in your head as some kind of reference. I still dont agree though that TAb makes the writer of a score any more , or less , accurate , that doesnt make much sense to me , people could make a bad transcription in any format. I also dont think that the Montoya pamphlet transcription is the normal , unless it was for that time period of the 50's , which may indeed be so as I have heard it said before .. As to looking through a piece of music before hand to give an idea ,, well thats what it gives ,,an idea , but actually playing it would be the way to prove it ...its just a tool , as you say ..but then isnt everything else you use to learn a piece of music? ...video , TAb , teacher , tape , youTube ..all just tools then ..with an aid to learning ...?

Kiko_Roca -> RE: sheet music to share? (Jun. 24 2016 20:41:32)
quote: ORIGINAL: El Kiko No no no .. this is not a thread about TAb vs notation ,that one has been done and done and done , and by the same people ..I also find it annoyingly remiss of Martins to bring it back , again ,,... My bad. I haven't been around the foro too long and didn't realize it was a contentious topic.

Ricardo -> RE: sheet music to share? (Jun. 24 2016 20:52:42)
quote: I still dont agree though that TAb makes the writer of a score any more , or less , accurate , that doesnt make much sense to me , people could make a bad transcription in any format. Wow, ok. I never said that the tab ITSELF is the problem...rather the LACK OF IT'S INCLUSION in a published transcription points to NON note for note arrangements. I admitted acceptions and now you are bringing up as many as you can. I would have lumped jazz scores in with classical if I had not in my possession several note for note Django and other type jazz guitar books all tabbed. Since you totally missed the point that the OP was a metal guitarist looking for NON tab transcriptions, you keep on disagreeing with the wrong point I was making.

El Kiko -> RE: sheet music to share? (Jun. 24 2016 21:39:49)
then we shall leave it at that....you missed my point of accuracy ...maybe I missed yours .... no more circles ... we all friends again ... end ............

Richard Jernigan -> RE: sheet music to share? (Jun. 24 2016 22:23:57)
quote: ORIGINAL: El Kiko I do agree that the score is a tool , assuming you have heard the music first , and that is why you want the sheet music version .. so , yes you would be correct in saying that , as it would be impossible to read it without using the pre-listened-to-music in your head as some kind of reference. As to looking through a piece of music before hand to give an idea ,, well thats what it gives ,,an idea , but actually playing it would be the way to prove it ...its just a tool , as you say ..but then isnt everything else you use to learn a piece of music? ...video , TAb , teacher , tape , youTube ..all just tools then ..with an aid to learning ...? Since I had no info to help the OP, I had been skipping this thread, but I just read through it now. I am confused by the first quoted paragraph above. I was classically trained on trumpet as a kid. One of the disciplines was sight singing. I was told the intention was to teach the ability to hear a score in the mind's ear while reading it. This ability can be developed to a phenomenal degree. I got only as far as doing it with single lines, since that's what the trumpet plays. To play orchestral music written before about 1860 when valved instruments came into general use, you had to transpose from one key to another at sight. I have repeatedly heard and read classical guitarists say the reason for using dots instead of tabs is to be able to hear the score while reading, no instrument in hand. Few classical guitarists can do it very well, but Grisha's classical teacher Eliot Fisk is an astonishing sight reader, from dots, not tabs. Maybe I didn't understand your point? RNJ

Sr. Martins -> RE: sheet music to share? (Jun. 25 2016 7:54:38)
I don't see how you read a "vs" where I specifically wrote a "+".

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