COMPOSITION

COMPOSITION (Full Version)

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JBASHORUN -> COMPOSITION (Jan. 18 2006 16:13:09)
Hello! I was considering writing my own Flamenco song and wondered if anyone had any useful advice for doing this. For example, is there a set procedure for Flamenco songs (such as an intro/middle/outro/verses or even choruses)? Also, how does one go about composing something? I know its often hard to describe the "creative process". But is it just a matter of trial and error about what sounds good, or is there some logical or methodical process that can be used? Or maybe even just a few rules to stick to that can assist the creative process? Obviously, compas will have to be in the back of my mind somewhere, but thats another issue... James

Miguel de Maria -> RE: COMPOSITION (Jan. 18 2006 16:52:53)
J, they're not usually "songs". Most flamenco (guitar) pieces are evocations of a juerga, a party where people can take their turns playing falsetas or dancing or singing. That's why the sequence is often falseta, compas, falseta, compas, etc. This is one way to do it. Of course if you are making a piece, you will probably want to "say something." A logical sequence could be a quiet intro type falseta, compas/falsetas, building to the most dramatic falseta, some crazy compas, and then end with a big remate. If a piece is based on a dance, like Alegrias, there is a typical form, although I'm not the best to talk about this since I don't really play for dancers. There are a couple real songs, such as Columbianas or Peterneras. My suggestion is imitation, imitation. That's the best way to learn. If you don't, what will come out will almost certainly have more to do with your prior background than flamenco. (see Ottmar Liebert)

gshaviv -> RE: COMPOSITION (Jan. 18 2006 17:36:38)
quote: My suggestion is imitation .... (see Ottmar Liebert) No! whatever you do, don't imitate Ottmar. [:@]

JBASHORUN -> RE: COMPOSITION (Jan. 18 2006 17:59:46)
quote: My suggestion is imitation, imitation. That's the best way to learn. If you don't, what will come out will almost certainly have more to do with your prior background than flamenco. (see Ottmar Liebert) Miguel, thanks for the advice... its appreciated. I might give some of the things you mentioned a try. Although "immitation"... I had the same idea.... "copy Paco!" I thought, and that is also what my teacher tells me to do. But I found that even immitation isn't easy. I recently got the tab for "Guajiras De Lucia" and Sanlucar's "Andares Gaditanos", and to be honest, I didn't make it past the first few bars!!! So I figured perhaps it would be easier to INNOVATE rather than immitate, that way I can choose the complexity of the piece, and also play it with a passion. But you have a point, everyone says that "immitation is one of the best ways to learn something". well, I guess its back to Immitating the Graf Martinez DVD for the moment... Cheers, James

Ryan002 -> RE: COMPOSITION (Jan. 18 2006 18:36:05)
BEgin with the intro. Get faster. Do the Andalucian cascade, some mad long arpeggios, and play picado.

JBASHORUN -> RE: COMPOSITION (Jan. 18 2006 18:38:29)
quote: BEgin with the intro. Get faster. Do the Andalucian cascade, some mad long arpeggios, and play picado. Hehe, now if I could do that even Paco would be out of a job!!!

Miguel de Maria -> RE: COMPOSITION (Jan. 18 2006 18:44:28)
James, take the Paco piece. Copy its structure by seperating out "riffs" or compases that are rhythmic in nature, and falsetas. Take those riffs and see if you can get down to the very essence of them by removing all the ornamentation and elaboration. For example, he may be playing 6 note arpeggios for a beat, well take that down to six or four or three. Or two. You'll find that what you have is still music and you may even like it better that way. It'll certainly sound better if you play what you can understand and technically accomplish rather than trying to copy a highly developed master when you aren't ready yet. Where he has these huge picado runs, make up your own run in eigth notes or triplets. Find the first note he starts on and find the note he ends on. What comes inbetween will be your responsibility to adapt. If there are repeating melodies, try to come up with our own melody and play it there instead. Listen to his falsetas and try to reduce them to what you can easily play. I'm not saying this is easy, but it is a way you can teach yourself. Change the falsetas around..a note here a note there--voila! It's your falseta now. This is a way to really get inside of a piece. By simplifying it, you now have added something to your own repertoire, it has gone from imagination to reality. As you develop and learn you can elaborate your own interpretation to that it fits your particular aesthetic, or you can get closer and closer to Paco if that's your wish. Start with the rhythmic units, the accents, and don't mess with those. Try to keep the basic chords the same, but you can ignore a lot of complex ventures up the neck.

gshaviv -> RE: COMPOSITION (Jan. 18 2006 18:47:53)
quote: I recently got the tab for... My suggestion, throw all your tabs. Go by ear, play it slowly and try to play with it, if its not exact, but still has the same harmony and compas, hey you created something. Going by ear is difficult at first, especially if your are used to only reading tab, so don't do difficult stuff, try repeating simple stuff. Tab can be like crutches sometimes, its an easy/fast way to learn, but my experience is that you don't fully comprehend the music this way. When you try to reconstruct by ear you have to rely on your music instincts, I found I understand better what I play when I learn by ear and can more freely make variations on it.

ToddK -> RE: COMPOSITION (Jan. 18 2006 18:56:31)
writing is all about borrowing/stealing from what you've learned. If you dont know a bunch of flamenco, and/or a whole buttload of falsettas, you're not gonna write anything good. To write one falsetta, you'd want to first learn 50. And NO, not from Guajira de Lucia. And NOT from Jucal. Try early to late Sabicas, search out the easier ones. Learn some stuff from Herrero and Martin. Its all good. You have to be more expeditious, and search for material. There's tons of stuff out there. Do a search on this site, and you'll find plenty. Writing music is like speaking a language. To speak, you need a vocabulary. To develop a flamenco/music vocabulary, you must take in as much material as you can. Im not saying learn a million falsettas in one week. Im saying learn one, every few days. Eventually, you get bored with the ones you learned 6 months ago, and so you start to variate them, and they morph into your own. TK

JBASHORUN -> RE: COMPOSITION (Jan. 18 2006 19:18:23)
quote: Writing music is like speaking a language. To speak, you need a vocabulary. To develop a flamenco/music vocabulary, you must take in as much material as you can. Hmmm... yes, I see what you mean. Its a bit like asking a child who knows very few English words to write novel! Although maybe something on a smaller scale wouldn't be impossible... perhaps just one melody or verse might be more manageable. Obviously I've heard of Sabicas... I think I've got one or two of his songs, but maybe his DVD would be a worthy investment. Miguel, thanks a lot- I'll give it a try and see what happens! Guy, the problem with learning by ear is that there are often several ways to play something, and its sometimes hard to tell which way is best, or rather which is the "intended" way. For example, I have a couple of different versions of Paco's "Rio Ancho" tab, and the main theme is fingered differently in each. But then again, I suppose it might not matter how you play it as long as it works for you. Thanks, James

Ryan002 -> RE: COMPOSITION (Jan. 20 2006 17:43:24)
There are many English novels seemingly written by children who know few words. Many of them can be found in the Romance or Popular Fiction section. [8D] That aside, I am wondering if anyone has a good "learning scheme" for people who want to start playing by ear...

ToddK -> RE: COMPOSITION (Jan. 20 2006 17:49:21)
quote: That aside, I am wondering if anyone has a good "learning scheme" for people who want to start playing by ear... You could start with a software ear training program. Start out just trying to identify intervals. For instance, the program would play you a note, followed by another note. Then you have to identify the distance between the notes. Or maybe it plays you a chord, and you have to tell if the chord is major, minor, or dominant. Fretboard Warrior is pretty cool, and its free.

JBASHORUN -> RE: COMPOSITION (Jan. 20 2006 18:17:16)
quote: Fretboard Warrior is pretty cool, and its free. I think this is the link: http://www.francoisbrisson.com/fretboardwarrior/fretboardwarrior.html

XXX -> RE: COMPOSITION (Jan. 20 2006 18:21:25)
Just a short recommendation: Ear Master Pro! Even the trial version is worth downloading! It has it all: Interval comparison Interval identification Chord identification Chord inversion identification Chord progression Scale identification Rhythm reading Rhythm imitation Rhythm correction Melody dictate The only problem is .. me. Im too lazy [:'(] I just started Interval Comparison, and Im at minor and major 2nd. Should I "fill" the notes in between in mind, or should I judge it by the "feeling"? Coz I recognized, that it seems more easy to determine this by saying which one sounds more sadly. But maybe this way has disadvantages later on in other tasks. Dunno

sorin popovici -> RE: COMPOSITION (Jan. 20 2006 20:41:59)
ear master pro is super cool ...i discovered this a year ago or so ago...i'm good at intervals when they arpegiate it ...but it's so easy to cheat ...I mean man they have lesson like perect 4th,trison and 5th .. a five i can recognize when they spell it for me ta -daaam, but even if u dont recognize ...u'll know a trison because it sounds super bad. Major and minor second ...easy , try to sing do re ...if u can ..it's obvious that it's major 2nd, not to mention that a minor second sounds like buhu hu hu. I'll look to fretboard warrior too , i wanted smth a little guitar related also. I have one falseta .. and some ugly remates, that's how far I am into composing [:D] Todd said it best ...if u know 3 words ...u cant write poetry.I also have problems cause I dont know harmony , and what to put on top of the harmony. To compose smth good ...u got to know stuff like Todd shows us in that melodic minor lesson. Dont be discouraged but Henrik can play some Paco ...and also lots of stuff, and he only showed us so far ...one modern flamenco falseta that he composed and he likes ,now...he also has a music school and knows things about harmony , modes ,ear training ,reading staffs well....gee,hey ..I just realized ,it's not fair....henrik you are killing my self esteem.[:D]

Ron.M -> RE: COMPOSITION (Jan. 20 2006 20:53:54)
A nice part from the maestro Rafael Riqueni's interview .... "it seems like flamenco guitarists all want to be composers and I think it's very important to be familiar with the legacy of those who went before.. and then of course, play whatever music you feel like playing..." cheers Ron

sorin popovici -> RE: COMPOSITION (Jan. 20 2006 21:00:36)
I know Ron,but I have to say again ....copyright issue [:D],I gave u the link ...and u already posted this little excerpt....[8D] It's not fair ...not only that I post and people dont read ..and u get away with the same quote every time,not to mention that probably u'll get OLEs again for it. [:'(] I dont wanna play "Google famous names" anymore....I always lose [8D]

XXX -> RE: COMPOSITION (Jan. 20 2006 21:02:48)
Minor 2nd are easy, but 3rd I dont have a clue. I must be doin something wrong.[:@] Exersize Interval comparison.

duende -> RE: COMPOSITION (Jan. 20 2006 21:04:33)
quote: he only showed us so far ...one modern flamenco falseta that he composed and he likes i tend to keep my own stuff for myself[;)] i only upload the "leftovers" except this modern thing i did, it is something i like and it´s not a "leftover" I did some more crazy falsetas today, just need to learn it properly for and upload.

sorin popovici -> RE: COMPOSITION (Jan. 20 2006 21:12:34)
I know ....u already said that... that u dont give away the goodies.oh,you.....[:@] I also know stuff u dont know...ne ne ne , too bad mine sound like digested leftovers .[:'(] But still sometimes i'm so original...last night for instance I invented a new palo..taranta in Em [:)] (i'm starting to hate Em).Also in my previous attempts to take over the world I invented bulerias toque libre.. u dont have to even play in A phrigian,so so ..avantgarde.[:D][:D][:D](i just had to ...damn compas , who needs it)

duende -> RE: COMPOSITION (Jan. 20 2006 21:31:38)
one day i´ll write a book. flamenco consert for Sorin P. music for you to preforme[:D] we can have bulerias libres and Tarantas por klezmer or Tangos de la balkaneros[:D]

sorin popovici -> RE: COMPOSITION (Jan. 20 2006 21:36:02)
[super offtopic] hey ...I imagine I'll be short on money then too....so please dont say 80$. Or I'll manage to emigrate to Sweden ...best blondes country...I just got to see this country at least ...I'll pick a summer though .I was today to a music shop to buy strings ...outside there were -15 degrees , i tried a guitar ...I couldnt do tremolo for 15 minutes.The salesman was looking very impatient ...I was trying to mimic a conaisseur ,ofcourse in the end I said... "well yamaha is interesting,where do u keep the condes?" He said "what ? " How cold is in Sweden now?I've heard on the news that in Moscow,u can freeze in an instant if u go outside [:d] And what's klezmer? [/superofftopic]

Ron.M -> RE: COMPOSITION (Jan. 20 2006 22:12:18)
quote: "well yamaha is interesting,where do u keep the condes?" He said "what ? " HaHa.. That's why I love the folk on this Forum! Goodnight, Ron

duende -> RE: COMPOSITION (Jan. 21 2006 5:30:44)
Klezmer is music from balkan, or jewish folkmusic. maybe somebody here can go in on the details[:D] check this link http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/students/scott/musproj/klez.html you´ll find that theres some arabe/flamenco sound in there as well the harmonic minor scale that is Sweden was like -40!!!! up north and in the south where i live it´s about -8c. lots of snow these days.[:D]

Ryan002 -> RE: COMPOSITION (Jan. 22 2006 18:06:40)
My mum was right about blasting the volume on my headphones. I suspect I am deaf. [:@]

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