RE: Harmonic bars (Full Version)

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Richard Jernigan -> RE: Harmonic bars (May 24 2016 2:22:51)

I just put away my Manuel Conteras, Sr. spruce/Braziian doble tapa. For those who may not know "doble tapa"means there is another back, inside the Brazilian one. In this case the interior back is made of spruce. It has three fairly substantial braces. I think it sits on top of the back braces of the outer, Brazilian one.

I got curious and stuck a mirror inside. The top has five braces. The center one is straight, The outer ones are curved outward toward the sides. There is a thin bridge strap. The strap is narrower under the heavier part of the bridge, but about the same width as the wings under the bridge wings.

Oh, yes, harmonic bars: the lower harmonic bar is scalloped on the ends and scooped out so it's not as tall in the middle as it is further toward the sides, before the scallop starts.

The Contreras is the second least played of the four classicals I have. But today, I calmed down and tried to get the best out of it. It's a really good guitar. Not as much tonal variety (the way I play it-or I suspect as most others would) as the Abel Garcia or the Romanillos, but the tones it has are very good.

The Romeros played Contreras before they switched to Miguel Rodriguez. I suspect my Contreras would stand up well to Pepe's very strong right hand. When I heard him last year he was playing an instrument made by his son. Sounded great, but not as much tonal variety as some players. Yamashita's right hand is even stronger, and he gets a wide range of tone on his Ramirez, while blasting the roof off the building un-amplified.

In June, 1991 I went to Contreras, Rozas (at the time almost next door to Contreras), Manzanero, Vicente Camacho, Bernabe and Ramirez trying classical guitars. I had only been playing flamenco--mostly. I had a Bernabe student model classical, but I hadn't put in any serious work on classical. Bernabe didn't have any first class classicals on hand in June 1991, the rest did. Of the guitars I played, I liked this Contreras the best. I suspect my choice was influenced by my flamenco right hand technique. Manuel Sr. showed me two spruce/Brazilian doble tapas. I picked this one, and asked if there was any difference in construction. It was the one without the suspended bar.

Manuel, Sr. said some people liked them, some didn't. Upon close inspection it looks like mine may have had a suspended bar when built, but it was taken out before it was shown to me. As I said, Pablo ("Manuel II") immediately offered to take the suspended bar out of my friend's doble tapa, at no charge.

RNJ



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Harmonic bars (May 28 2016 14:43:07)

quote:

I just put away my Manuel Conteras, Sr. spruce/Braziian doble tapa. For those who may not know "doble tapa"means there is another back, inside the Brazilian one. In this case the interior back is made of spruce. It has three fairly substantial braces. I think it sits on top of the back braces of the outer, Brazilian one.


I believe that the Contreras double top was designed to eliminate wolf tones and this was their answer to finding a way to smooth out the sound. There have been many techniques and designs that have been created in the Spanish style that lead me to believe that there is nothing new under the sun.

Some older artisans in the Spanish idiom have chosen to adjust their bracing with modulating brace tapers, shapes and sizes to gain certain balance with tone.

I decided earlier on that I would try and follow these older techniques, but it is a grueling process, not for the faint hearted, when trying to make an adjustment and have everything go out of balance and then try to bring it back with acceptable tonal response. I have struggled with this for years and I still search for answers that elude even the best of us.

I fully understand and appreciate the ideal of building a fail safe guitar with technical guarantees. Therefore I salute Contreras in his efforts to simplify the process.



RobJe -> RE: Harmonic bars (May 30 2016 9:29:39)

quote:

That Bellido, even through you tube a layers of mics and such sounds great. The reason I was thinking about Fleta however was to make a a classical to put on consignment at a dealers in Nagoya. They granted me, finally, the invitation to show in their shop. The Fleta would be a first for me so not sure I want to chance it. I have been making a Hauser II brace scheme for classicals that I am getting used to, maybe not the best time to switch to a new model. Wondering now how you think Bellido trimmed down the Fleta idea to make a flamenco? I have seen a de la Chica with 9 fans and a few other rely good flamenco guitars with seven or nine fans, that taught me that it's not a number of fans or always light structure that makes is flamenco. You would not happen to be adventurous enough to shine a light in your guitar and show the braces would you? haha Or speculate on how thick or thin the top is?


Sorry this took so long - I needed to get a light. Looks like an awful lot of wood for 1450 g. The exhibition picture I posted looks very much like the inside of mine when I looked with a mirror.



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estebanana -> RE: Harmonic bars (May 30 2016 15:02:55)

Robjje,
This is really cool, thank you for taking the time to sort out the lighting. Late night here now, but I will have more to say in the morning. Good stuff!



estebanana -> RE: Harmonic bars (Jun. 1 2016 4:59:39)

This is not a flamenco guitar, it's classical. As long as we are mulling over the basic Fleta design I thought this might be interesting to look at. Lot of structure. Dominique Field.



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Andy Culpepper -> RE: Harmonic bars (Jun. 4 2016 0:24:28)

I decided to revisit an old (very simple) bracing pattern that I used to use with some success, but play around with the fan dimensions vs. h-bars.
I made the fan braces a bit taller and stiffer while reducing the lower h-bar to 7.5 x 11 mm. Sort of a nod in the direction of the Condes I've seen. We'll see how it sounds.



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estebanana -> RE: Harmonic bars (Jun. 4 2016 1:21:15)

Looks like Condeminium. How thick top?



Andy Culpepper -> RE: Harmonic bars (Jun. 4 2016 1:26:59)

Not nearly as thick is Conde, will end up 2.0 - 2.1 or 2.2ish



estebanana -> RE: Harmonic bars (Jun. 9 2016 13:07:34)

Yeah under the influence of this theard I trimmed a lateral bar down to a gastly 10.5 mm

The Santos thing, did he invent it? Probably not, I think the diagonal bar can be found on guitars a 100 years before Santos. As he used it in concert with the five mostly parallel fans it's his thing.

This is like the famed '51 Barbero, which is like some of the the Santos guitars of the early 1920's I have pictures of a 1920 Santos with the back off and the braces are almost verbatim like the 51 Barbero. I've mentioned this before but it bears repeating in the context of this thread.

My reckoning of the thing that happens with this diagonal brace is that it stiffens the treble side and makes one side of the top stiffer thus more apt to be sympathetic to high frequency vibration needed by the treble. In 2002 I built one of these, but as I braced the top, for some reason I thought I was looking straight though the top and actually seeing the treble side on the right instead of on the left. I was looking at plans that gave a 'through the top view' as if the top were transparent and as I built forgot to take this into account.

The guitar ended up having the diagonal bar point down into the bass side. It did not make much difference for two reasons. I was not as good then and just getting through a guitar was an accomplishment so it was not a big deal. But two, it did not make much difference anyway. If I had been clever I would have made it into left handed guitar, but it worked more or less fine with the bridge in regular orientation with trebles on the right.

Go figure.

____________
This one is 140 grams - the last one was almost 184 grams with braces. Thicker top, more brace wood in the top. 20 gram bridge, the sound was 'UUUGE', as the Donald would say. I expect the sound of this one to be UUGER.





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