RE: Scale Length and small hands (Full Version)

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Mark2 -> RE: Scale Length and small hands (May 4 2016 15:46:09)

I already have one wife-not dealing with jealous guitars.....and the wife doesn't get a vote on guitars. I usually have them delivered to my work address, then kind of sneak them in the house. I did that with a guitar Ethan made, and thought I was in the clear, but one day when I was embracing it, the wife said "When did you get that one?" I said "I'm surprised you noticed" Ethan's headstock gave me away. Now I've got a les paul double cut I just bought in the shop getting set up. I'm getting busted on that one for sure-I've got nothing that looks like it.
quote:

ORIGINAL: RobJe

quote:

a guitar is a crucial partner in your life


Yeah - but there's a lot of polygamy on this forum!

I agree with your notes of caution - sadly you should only trust yourself and/or an expert friend - apologies to honest sellers and dealers though.

Rob



Cervantes -> RE: Scale Length and small hands (May 4 2016 19:11:56)

Ok, I did say the guitar sounds awesome and I still stand by that, of course there is always a better sounding guitar out there. But if its going to be difficult to play then the sound isn't going to help that. Because of the scale length, the heavier weight and I have since found out from several sources that Carrillo's tend to have have a wider fingerboard make this guitar not a good option for me as much as I wanted to like it.
I did check out Dan Zeff's website and found a few possibilities:

2005 Gerundino (I think it was finished if not built by Juan Miguel Gonzalez, I could pretend to be Paco Pena)

2008 Andres Dominguez (Has Cedar top which I think I prefer)

Three different Rameriz two with Cedar tops (I could pretend to be Sabicas)

All of these guitars are 650mm or 655mm. Its a few hours drive so I could definitely go there and Guitar Salon is around the same area.

There are all the Luthiers here I could buy from but I would really like to try a guitar before buying. Its really tough trying to find a direction in this.



Piwin -> RE: Scale Length and small hands (May 4 2016 19:22:01)

quote:

But if its going to be difficult to play


Did you get that impression when you tried it out? In your OP it sounds more like you reasoned yourself into thinking it would be hard to play after the fact, but did you actually have any trouble while you were playing? Maybe you could go back on a day you've warmed up before, play the hell out of it, focus on how the guitar feels and whether these stretches are really going to be too hard?



BarkellWH -> RE: Scale Length and small hands (May 4 2016 19:45:32)

quote:

2005 Gerundino (I think it was finished if not built by Juan Miguel Gonzalez,


In his later years, up to 2002 0r 2003 or so, Gerundino built a few guitars that were finished by Juan Miguel Gonzalez. Gerundino passed away in 2006, so the 2005 model may be problematical, or it may have been built earlier and finished by Juan Miguel in 2005. I understand that has occurred as well. Give it a try. A good Gerundino is every bit a match for Ramirez, Arcangel Fernandez, and Conde, and in some cases better.

Bill



Cervantes -> RE: Scale Length and small hands (May 4 2016 20:08:34)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

quote:

But if its going to be difficult to play


Did you get that impression when you tried it out? In your OP it sounds more like you reasoned yourself into thinking it would be hard to play after the fact, but did you actually have any trouble while you were playing? Maybe you could go back on a day you've warmed up before, play the hell out of it, focus on how the guitar feels and whether these stretches are really going to be too hard?


To be honest I was worried more about my wife listening to my crappy playing so I wasn't paying that much attention. I guess I owe it to myself to go try it again and focus on playability. Just going by the numbers and what I am told in theory its not a good fit for me, but I know I shouldn't judge it based solely on that.



gerundino63 -> RE: Scale Length and small hands (May 4 2016 20:12:32)

Hi Cervantes, I have small hands myself.... But a lot is in the Mind. The scale lenght is in my oppinion not the most important.
You will find out yourself I guess.

One guitar you should pay attention at the dan Zeff site is the Jose Lopez Bellido 2008. They are very nice to play with a very nice sound and projection.
The most easy guitar, besides the guitars I have from Anders Eliasson that I played. (I have also a Gerundino, but besides the sound, it is not "easy" to play)



Cervantes -> RE: Scale Length and small hands (May 4 2016 20:46:35)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gerundino63

Hi Cervantes, I have small hands myself.... But a lot is in the Mind. The scale lenght is in my oppinion not the most important.
You will find out yourself I guess.

One guitar you should pay attention at the dan Zeff site is the Jose Lopez Bellido 2008. They are very nice to play with a very nice sound and projection.
The most easy guitar, besides the guitars I have from Anders Eliasson that I played. (I have also a Gerundino, but besides the sound, it is not "easy" to play).
I have heard from others that Ander's guitars are among the easiest to play but no way to get my hands on one here.


Thanks for the tip that guitar does look nice and maybe Gerundino isn't for me.
Dan invited me to come and play some guitars so I will be doing that soon, should be really helpful and fun. I am hoping to get my teacher to come with me (he really needs a guitar that will show off his playing). I have heard that Ander's guitars are easy to play but no way to get my hands on one here.



sig -> RE: Scale Length and small hands (May 4 2016 22:03:48)

Why don't you take your current instrument with you when you go to play the VC? At least you can compare each to each other and it might give you a better understanding of the scale length compared to your current guitar. You are correct, there is always a better guitar however the best guitar is the one that inspires you to play it rather than leave it in the case!



Leñador -> RE: Scale Length and small hands (May 5 2016 1:17:22)

I'd go look at this if were in the market.
https://www.danzeffguitars.com/productpages/flamenco-guitars-1963-José-Ramirez-Flamenco-Spain-313.cfm



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Scale Length and small hands (May 5 2016 2:18:12)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leñador

I'd go look at this if were in the market.
https://www.danzeffguitars.com/productpages/flamenco-guitars-1963-José-Ramirez-Flamenco-Spain-313.cfm


This is the second time in the last couple of weeks that I have seen a Ramirez 2a represented as a 1a. The link to the Ramirez website clearly describes the label (the leftmost one on the web page) on this guitar as 2a.

http://tinyurl.com/hf8e5w2

(I handled a few Ramirez guitars from the 1960s to the 1980s, bought a few from Jose III in Madrid and sold them at a profit in the USA. I was kind of a Ramirez nut for a while.)

Being a 2a doesn't mean it's not a good guitar. I have played a few Ramirez 2a's that I thought were better than the average 1a. It only refers to the cosmetic appearance of the wood. It also lowers the price.

Note that the 12-hole bridge is not original. Maybe more holes were drilled, maybe a new bridge was fitted. And check the center seam between the bridge and the heel. I can't tell from the photos what's going on there.

Still, if the guitar is in stable condition and you like how it plays, this could be a bargain.

RNJ

And taking your own guitar to compare is a good idea. The acoustics of the room can make a big difference. Back in the day when I bought a few guitars in Paracho I noticed that the more expensive shops all had showrooms with hard plastered walls and ceiling and tile floors!



Leñador -> RE: Scale Length and small hands (May 5 2016 4:50:08)

quote:

I noticed that the more expensive shops all had showrooms with hard plastered walls and ceiling and tile floors!

Like a bathroom! [:D]
It's worth a play if your headed there.



payaso -> RE: Scale Length and small hands (May 5 2016 9:27:00)

In a better world guitarists would never have to decide on an expensive guitar just by playing it in the dealer’s showroom, where the acoustics, as Richard Jernigan so rightly says, are often specially designed to make the instrument sound impressive. It can also be difficult to relax in such a setting or to take adequate time over the appraisal. It should be the norm that the prospective purchaser takes the instrument home for a week or two to see whether it is really the one for them.

This is normal in the world of violin sales. A young friend recently had two violins on loan from a top dealer, one for about $200,000 dollars (yes, two hundred thousand) and the other for substantially more. – both, as it happened, rejected after a suitable trial., Guitarists unfortunately do not inspire the same degree of trust from dealers. It would be good if they did. What can be done to improve the situation so that trial periods become the expected norm?



estebanana -> RE: Scale Length and small hands (May 5 2016 10:42:33)

Buying a guitar for 3 grand a violin for 45 grand are two very different kinds of acquisitions.



keith -> RE: Scale Length and small hands (May 5 2016 11:07:32)

I wonder if the 12 hole bridge is a compensation due to the neck angle going south. Ramirez guitars from the JR 3 era have a reputation of not having the most user friendly neck design. If you have difficulties with stretches on a guitar it could be more pronounced on an older Ramirez.



RobJe -> RE: Scale Length and small hands (May 5 2016 11:12:22)

quote:

This is the second time in the last couple of weeks that I have seen a Ramirez 2a represented as a 1a. The link to the Ramirez website clearly describes the label (the leftmost one on the web page) on this guitar as 2a.


Opinions differ as you will see in this Richard Brune letter http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewtopic.php?t=47367

It's probably not worth arguing about - research has shown the label is completely silent!

What is relevant is that the typical Ramirez flamenco sound was achieved with cedar tops that didn't appear until later in the 60's. By chance I have played 5 of these cedar top guitars over the past few months (including a 1968 that I own) and I was amazed at how consistent in sound and feel they were. Perhaps it is because JR III ruled his workshop with a rod of iron? In later years huge numbers of these guitars were produced so there should be plenty around. I like them very much.

Rob



BarkellWH -> RE: Scale Length and small hands (May 5 2016 13:09:41)

Well, Cervantes, do you think you have enough opinions and recommendations to guide (or confuse!) you now?

Please let us know what you ultimately decide on. Good luck, don't overthink it all, and select the guitar that you feel most comfortable playing, both now and in anticipation of the future.

Cheers,

Bill



Cervantes -> RE: Scale Length and small hands (May 5 2016 15:15:51)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

Well, Cervantes, do you think you have enough opinions and recommendations to guide (or confuse!) you now?

Please let us know what you ultimately decide on. Good luck, don't overthink it all, and select the guitar that you feel most comfortable playing, both now and in anticipation of the future.

Cheers,

Bill


Bill,

This has been a therapy session of sorts for somebody who does not play well enough to justify an expensive guitar but wants one anyway despite his wife not being so keen on the idea. However over past few years I have never been so committed and made so much progress playing guitar and I feel that will continue indefinitely. Expensive is a relative term and I feel $3K is really at the bottom for a flamenco guitar that I am expecting will last me the rest of my life. It has also opened my eyes to all the possibilities of guitars which has caused me to take a pause and not fixate on a particular guitar. I need to spend some time and look at as many guitars as I can to learn what will be the best next step. I think I will know when I find the right one. I have another expensive hobby that this reminds me of which is bicycling. I have owned many high end bicycles in my lifetime and have probably spent more than $20K on bicycle related things. I don't regret it but I probably won't be spending much more money on them as I am satisfied with what I have. Like guitars, bicycles are subjective and what one person may love another may dislike. My teacher has been requiring me to play the same Juan Martin Farruca until I can play it without mistakes and not stopping. I am getting closer and will post some audio (my first) soon. My wife says I have tell my teacher to let me stop playing it and to give me something else. Again thanks to all for helpful advice.



rombsix -> RE: Scale Length and small hands (May 5 2016 18:00:33)

quote:

Bill,

This has been a therapy session of sorts for somebody who does not play well enough to justify an expensive guitar but wants one anyway despite his wife not being so keen on the idea. However over past few years I have never been so committed and made so much progress playing guitar and I feel that will continue indefinitely. Expensive is a relative term and I feel $3K is really at the bottom for a flamenco guitar that I am expecting will last me the rest of my life. It has also opened my eyes to all the possibilities of guitars which has caused me to take a pause and not fixate on a particular guitar. I need to spend some time and look at as many guitars as I can to learn what will be the best next step. I think I will know when I find the right one. I have another expensive hobby that this reminds me of which is bicycling. I have owned many high end bicycles in my lifetime and have probably spent more than $20K on bicycle related things. I don't regret it but I probably won't be spending much more money on them as I am satisfied with what I have. Like guitars, bicycles are subjective and what one person may love another may dislike. My teacher has been requiring me to play the same Juan Martin Farruca until I can play it without mistakes and not stopping. I am getting closer and will post some audio (my first) soon. My wife says I have tell my teacher to let me stop playing it and to give me something else. Again thanks to all for helpful advice.


Dude, within reasonable limits, it really is NOT about the guitar, but much more so about the player. If you don't feel like spending big bucks on a guitar is the right time yet, then wait. Like I said, I had a $2,000 nice instrument that was hand-picked by Jorge Berges in Valencia, and I decided to sell it and get a $600 GK Studio Negra by Cordoba, and I couldn't be happier... The latter actually allows me to play very easily and effortlessly, and to me, playability is everything. What use is a guitar that sounds fantastic but eternally slumbers in its case? Vamos!



Piwin -> RE: Scale Length and small hands (May 5 2016 22:37:15)

quote:

However over past few years I have never been so committed and made so much progress playing guitar and I feel that will continue indefinitely


I love that feeling. Though lately it's been eluding me...[:@][:(]



Goldwinghai -> RE: Scale Length and small hands (May 5 2016 23:54:46)

Joel, are you serious that your teacher wants you to play the piece without mistakes and not stopping before moving on to a new piece? I would lose interest and get bored knowing that my fingers are still stiff and not independent, and it's impossible for beginners like me to play without mistakes. Perfection is a life long pursuit - flamenco that is. Regarding buy a flamenco guitar - I guess I am fortunate for being able to make quick snappy decision and so far my purchases of a flamenco and a classical guitar turn out fine. I like them both. But I still want a blanca. I will be in Central Europe next month, hope will run across some guitars. Hai.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Scale Length and small hands (May 6 2016 3:44:27)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobJe

quote:

This is the second time in the last couple of weeks that I have seen a Ramirez 2a represented as a 1a. The link to the Ramirez website clearly describes the label (the leftmost one on the web page) on this guitar as 2a.


Opinions differ as you will see in this Richard Brune letter http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewtopic.php?t=47367

It's probably not worth arguing about - research has shown the label is completely silent!



Rob


Brune probably knows more about it than I do. I didn't start dealing with Ramirez III until 1967.

RNJ



estebanana -> RE: Scale Length and small hands (May 6 2016 5:38:19)

I liked Brune's take on the whole Jose III shop initial frakus. There are dealers who try to break it down into which stamp is better. I have to say I have seen quite a number of these and on the outside they have cohesiveness. Cypress Jose III shop blancas are very consistent. So why does it matter who's chop mark is on the heel? It's as if they are all one of Jose's long octopus arms all working order under the direction of one brain.

I have seen one with the back off. All the braces and marks lined up with English inch fractions that were not complex, 16ths being the smallest divisor. This suggested to myself and the guy doing the repair work that Jose III had a strict layout to be followed, and that he devised ratios and fractions to be straight forward so the work could be checked by laying a ruler over it to inspect the accuracy. It looks like there is not a great deal of variance in each iteration of bracing that he designed. It's my guess he did this on purpose to standardize the work from assembly bench to bench. Instead of laying it out hitting 64ths or fine fractions, it lands on bigger fractions that are easier to read and remember, and to walk by and check over.

Very esoteric to guitar buyers, but builder nerds get into that kind of thing.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Scale Length and small hands (May 6 2016 6:56:54)

quote:

It should be the norm that the prospective purchaser takes the instrument home for a week or two to see whether it is really the one for them.


I would gladly accept that IF the prospective purchaser showed up with an insurrance that would cover full price even for smaller damage. I Totally speak out of bad experience. A stupid player can make you loose a LOT of money just by getting carried away in second. 1 bad capirote costs a lot of money.



payaso -> RE: Scale Length and small hands (May 6 2016 8:03:56)

I agree that the dealer/luthier would certainly need adequate protection against thieves and idiots, and perhaps a deposit of the full price and a signed agreement about the consequences of even minor damage. The guitarist would need to demonstrate appropriate respect and care for the guitar and some further evidence of good faith and trustworthiness. The privilege would certainly not be granted to everybody or even the majority of would-be purchasers – but it would be good if it was sometimes extended to more players than just top professionals. Or does this ever happen already?



RobJe -> RE: Scale Length and small hands (May 6 2016 8:48:46)

quote:

It's as if they are all one of Jose's long octopus arms all working order under the direction of one brain.


JR III set out to run a classic artisan system of master, journeymen and apprentices and for a few years he made a good job of this, turning out master luthiers like Bernabe, Contreras, Mazanero etc who were confident enough to make their own innovations after they left, rather than endlessly repeat the Ramirez pattern.

Paradoxically success contained the seeds of destruction. His workshop rapidly expanded from producing about 400 guitars per year in the late 60s to well over a thousand by the mid 70s. Guitars were numbered (starting at 2000 sometime in 1967 I think). Buyers in the Ramirez shop had their serial numbers recorded in a book. By the mid 80s when serial numbers were approaching 19000 numbering stopped. I suppose that publishing the numbers just advertised the fact that production was now on a factory scale.

And the modern Ramirez flamencos? Good or bad they are certainly not produced in a classic artisan system!

Rob



RobJe -> RE: Scale Length and small hands (May 6 2016 9:02:50)

quote:

are you serious that your teacher wants you to play the piece without mistakes and not stopping before moving on to a new piece?


Yes, I wondered about this.

My teacher (many years ago) was more concerned with another issue – compass. His view was that since I hadn’t grown up in a flamenco culture, I had the severe disadvantage of not having this built into to my being. So the notes were subservient to the compass – the sin was not playing wrong notes but going out of compass. Sometimes in my lesson I just had to play por Solea for 15 minutes.

Rob



Ricardo -> RE: Scale Length and small hands (May 6 2016 11:10:56)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Buying a guitar for 3 grand a violin for 45 grand are two very different kinds of acquisitions.


Because of the scale length I presume?[:D]



estebanana -> RE: Scale Length and small hands (May 6 2016 15:11:11)

quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Buying a guitar for 3 grand a violin for 45 grand are two very different kinds of acquisitions.


Because of the scale length I presume?


The ff hole stickers cost much,much more than rosette stickers.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Scale Length and small hands (May 6 2016 15:13:11)

quote:

I agree that the dealer/luthier would certainly need adequate protection against thieves and idiots, and perhaps a deposit of the full price and a signed agreement about the consequences of even minor damage. The guitarist would need to demonstrate appropriate respect and care for the guitar and some further evidence of good faith and trustworthiness. The privilege would certainly not be granted to everybody or even the majority of would-be purchasers – but it would be good if it was sometimes extended to more players than just top professionals. Or does this ever happen already?


Have you had 3 local midlevel spanish flamenco players enter your workshop and starting playing along shifting around guitars every 3 minuts and discussing loudly? Before you´ve had the chance to find the insurrance papers they have made 2 or 3 dings and then they ask you for the price, which is already to low and offer you 50% of that. When you say no to that and take the guitar away in order to avoid further damage, they get upset and tell you that you are crazy.

What you say is an ideal world, what I say is based on my own experience and it has happened more than once.



payaso -> RE: Scale Length and small hands (May 6 2016 15:46:14)

Yes, I am sure that you have suffered all sorts of terrible abuses. How would it be if you only let in people who had made an appointment or had been introduced by a sponsor? I’ve seen that work well in the violin world.



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