RE: Guitar choice advice (Full Version)

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Anders Eliasson -> RE: Guitar choice advice (Apr. 29 2016 8:50:39)

quote:

That's interesting. I'd have to agree about the tones but how does one know when they have outgrown a guitar?


You'll know when you play one that opens you world to something new and undiscovered.



meknyc -> RE: Guitar choice advice (Apr. 29 2016 15:34:47)

The Rozas is a F-1E student blanca. Very little info to be found anywhere about the Rozas and none on the students. It seems that IR did not actually make the student models himself. Does anyone here know anything more or has ever try one?



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Guitar choice advice (Apr. 29 2016 15:56:36)

Spanish student models can be made whereever as already has been suggested in this thread. If you own a shop, you can buy a handfull of Spanish factory guitars and put in your own label. I could do so as well.

I´m not saying that this particular guitar falls into that category.



meknyc -> RE: Guitar choice advice (Apr. 29 2016 18:23:56)

Thank you all for the flowing advice. I have read this forum for a few months and joining was a long due step. You are a welcoming bunch.

I have set up a few tests of used guitars around here tomorrow:
Prudencio Saez 24 ($350 bottom line)
Rozas Student ($700, can try negotiate some)
Alpujarra 85k ($650 or best offer) – an Argentine guitar said by seller to be a tango/flamenco,(?) though I have never heard. Nothing to lose in playing it.
And still waiting to hopefully try a new Navarro student (950), which may still be the best option thus far.

If nothing else, I will get a feel for what I do or don’t like.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Guitar choice advice (Apr. 29 2016 19:39:50)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

I disagree. A better guitar is a better teacher than a bad guitar. Instruments actually teach you a lot.
Cheap guitars may sound well, but normally they only have very few sounds. They sound one way and nothing else. voice is onedirectional and dynamics are very poor.


I agree with Anders. I had studied a different instrument, eventually with a professional teacher (Principal in the U.S. National Symphony) and eventually with a top quality professional instrument. It was a given in this well developed field that the quality of instrument would have a significant effect on your playing.

When I started the guitar I went to Paracho and bought a semi-decent instrument. It had good volume, played in tune, but was rather coarse and didn't have much tonal range. I learned some of Mario Escudero's concert flamenco pieces.

One day in the early 1960s I walked into one of the largest musical instrument stores in Mexico City. It is in the ground floor of the old Convento de las Vizcaínas, near the Salto del Agua. Hanging on the wall in the used stringed instrument section was a 1930s Santos Hernandez blanca. I asked to play it.

All these years later I still remember the feeling of elation when I started to play that guitar, the first really good guitar I had in my hands. I played Escudero's version of rondeña, which he had learned from his teacher Ramon Montoya. I played it better than I ever had before.

When I handed the guitar back to the handsome middle aged blonde sales woman, and apologized for not being able to afford it (it was several hundred dollars), I noticed she had tears in her eyes. She said, "Gracias, joven. Yo soy de Ronda."

In 1967 my wife gave me a Ramirez 1a blanca, another expensive guitar, costing $650. It's the instrument that taught me how to play. I still have it, and enjoy playing it almost as much as I do my favorite flamenca, a collector's item, now worth 6 or 7 times today's price of the Ramirez in the market. During the 15 years I have had my favorite, it has taught me a few more things.

RNJ



Mark2 -> RE: Guitar choice advice (Apr. 29 2016 20:28:52)

How about some context? The op is essentially a beginner at flamenco. I have no doubt that someone who has played flamenco for years, and picks up a superior guitar and gives Escudero's rondena a go would feel a profound sense of satisfaction. Or that a professional violinist who plays in top orchestras won't truly appreciate the difference between a good and great instrument. But a person who has yet to figure out how to groove por bulerias? Different story IMO. How does that individual even know what he'd prefer in a flamenco guitar other than his own inexperienced(in flamenco) feelings about sound and playability? How is he going to know how it will sound and play doing techniques he cannot yet execute? I found my Ramirez 1a in the want ads about six months after starting flamenco lessons. I showed up to my next lesson and proudly pulled out the guitar. My teacher looked it over, strummed a few chords and congratulated me on a very good buy. It was $700.00 He said he would have bought it himself for 700, but went on to say, "Don't think you have the best in this guitar. It's good, but not the top." I would have had no idea. Like the OP, I already had a pretty solid history of guitar playing in other styles when this happened. I still have the guitar almost thirty five years later. It's beat to hell, and I love it, but it didn't teach me how to play.

Of course I think everyone should acquire the best they can, but a focus on selecting a guitar when you are just beginning, concerned that you will quickly outgrow it-I find it misses the mark. No disrespect to the OP intended.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

I disagree. A better guitar is a better teacher than a bad guitar. Instruments actually teach you a lot.
Cheap guitars may sound well, but normally they only have very few sounds. They sound one way and nothing else. voice is onedirectional and dynamics are very poor.


I agree with Anders. I had studied a different instrument, eventually with a professional teacher (Principal in the U.S. National Symphony) and eventually with a top quality professional instrument. It was a given in this well developed field that the quality of instrument would have a significant effect on your playing.

When I started the guitar I went to Paracho and bought a semi-decent instrument. It had good volume, played in tune, but was rather coarse and didn't have much tonal range. I learned some of Mario Escudero's concert flamenco pieces.

One day in the early 1960s I walked into one of the largest musical instrument stores in Mexico City. It is in the ground floor of the old Convento de las Vizcaínas, near the Salto del Agua. Hanging on the wall in the used stringed instrument section was a 1930s Santos Hernandez blanca. I asked to play it.

All these years later I still remember the feeling of elation when I started to play that guitar, the first really good guitar I had in my hands. I played Escudero's version of rondeña, which he had learned from his teacher Ramon Montoya. I played it better than I ever had before.

When I handed the guitar back to the handsome middle aged blonde sales woman, and apologized for not being able to afford it (it was several hundred dollars), I noticed she had tears in her eyes. She said, "Gracias, joven. Yo soy de Ronda."

In 1967 my wife gave me a Ramirez 1a blanca, another expensive guitar, costing $650. It's the instrument that taught me how to play. I still have it, and enjoy playing it almost as much as I do my favorite flamenca, a collector's item, now worth 6 or 7 times today's price of the Ramirez in the market. During the 15 years I have had my favorite, it has taught me a few more things.

RNJ



meknyc -> RE: Guitar choice advice (Apr. 29 2016 21:11:43)

quote:

Of course I think everyone should acquire the best they can, but a focus on selecting a guitar when you are just beginning, concerned that you will quickly outgrow it-I find it misses the mark. No disrespect to the OP intended.


None assumed. And I do understand the point of having a lot to learn, of course.
You are in a way highlighting the point though as your 700$ 35 years ago is about $1600 today. If I could spend that much, I would. Just like I would buy a Ramirez 1a for 700$...



Mark2 -> RE: Guitar choice advice (Apr. 29 2016 21:20:51)

I'd buy the Ramirez for $1,600 too. The ones I see for sale are closer to 5k in good condition. My point was back then I knew the Ramirez was a good DEAL, but I had no idea where it stood as far as flamenco guitars. That took some time.



estebanana -> RE: Guitar choice advice (Apr. 30 2016 0:40:14)

I have a Cedar Japanese Aria made in 1984, plywood back and sides covered with rosewood veneer. It sounds as good as most Conde's and sounds not unlike a good Conde'. It's is a real guitar. I lowered the saddle and that was it, flamenca negra. The high end Media Lunas have more punch and complexity, there is not contest, but compared to any Valencia factory guitar and any under $2000.00 guitar I have seen these solid top Japanese factory classicals from the late 70, through 80's hold their own. Why? Because the Japanese factories were not messing around and they made quality stuff that lasts, even though it is not hand made.

There are lots of Aria sleepers out there for first guitars, and you can usually get them cheap because they are undervalued at the moment. If they are n pristine condition there are collectors...usually beginners at collecting looking for Japanese treasures, they often over look the Aria...just a tip.

My landlady gave it to me because it was in her garage. It was free, looking over Craigslist and garage sales and local estate sales you might keep your eyes open for Yamahas and Aria classicals from the 70's and 80's with solid tops. There were 10,000's of thousands of them made and they are usually cheap. They make great first flamenco guitars.

The $400.00 Yamaha is still a good deal, IMO.

Solid top Japanese classicals from the 1980's the more beat up the
better, get one for under $100.00 if they are beat up. Maybe I should go around Japan and buy then resell them in the US for 500.00
HAHAH

Get used Aria for under $200.00 - sand the bottom of the saddle 2mm , buy a 4.00 tap plate from Stew Mac and save your money for lessons. Then buy a nice custom guitar from a Foro maker after you've been playing for two years. ;) $1000. for your first guitar is a waste of money IMO, good lessons are a better value on any POS guitar.

I think picking your first teacher is about 100 times more important than your first guitar. I have heard Gitano kids like 8 years old sitting on the curb with crappy nasty guitars and the kids ooze aire. it's not the guitar, it is the self.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Guitar choice advice (Apr. 30 2016 2:56:43)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark2

How about some context? The op is essentially a beginner at flamenco. I have no doubt that someone who has played flamenco for years, and picks up a superior guitar and gives Escudero's rondena a go would feel a profound sense of satisfaction. Or that a professional violinist who plays in top orchestras won't truly appreciate the difference between a good and great instrument. But a person who has yet to figure out how to groove por bulerias? Different story IMO. How does that individual even know what he'd prefer in a flamenco guitar other than his own inexperienced(in flamenco) feelings about sound and playability? How is he going to know how it will sound and play doing techniques he cannot yet execute? I found my Ramirez 1a in the want ads about six months after starting flamenco lessons. I showed up to my next lesson and proudly pulled out the guitar. My teacher looked it over, strummed a few chords and congratulated me on a very good buy. It was $700.00 He said he would have bought it himself for 700, but went on to say, "Don't think you have the best in this guitar. It's good, but not the top." I would have had no idea. Like the OP, I already had a pretty solid history of guitar playing in other styles when this happened. I still have the guitar almost thirty five years later. It's beat to hell, and I love it, but it didn't teach me how to play.

Of course I think everyone should acquire the best they can, but a focus on selecting a guitar when you are just beginning, concerned that you will quickly outgrow it-I find it misses the mark. No disrespect to the OP intended.


I went to Paracho when I was 19 to buy my first guitar. I believe I had been cued to Ramon Zalapa by one or more of Ed Freeman's students. Zalapa sold guitars, paint and office furniture. He said he had a factory employing 10 people to make guitars. I picked out the loudest one of the medium quality instruments in the store, checking to see that it played in tune. I paid 300 pesos ($24) for it. Being a 19-year old twit with no knowledge of guitars, I complimented it. Zalapa smiled, pushed back his straw hat and smiled broadly, showing a gold tooth in his Indian face. "Pues, to'os no salen igual," he said.

With the Zalapa, for the first time I had a guitar to play. When I played the Santos in Mexico City I had been playing on my own, without a teacher for perhaps three years. The Santos was a revelation. I hung out with a couple of Freeman's students who gave me a few tips...very few. With my earlier musical training I was able to figure out how to get through published editions of Escudero's stuff, and I had the LPs. But I had very little idea of good right hand technique or how to get a true flamenco sound. Left hand technique also left a lot to be desired, but youth and strength managed to avoid injury.

When my wife gave me the Ramirez as a wedding present I began to experiment to find out how to produce a flamenco sound, which the Paracho guitar basically could not do. I had four or five guitars shipped to Austin to try at various times. When I played a few notes on the Ramirez, my wife, who went to university on a classical piano scholarship, smiled in approval. That was the only advice I had. Still I had no teacher. The only one within any feasible distance was Freeman in Dallas, and we both recognized that we were not a good personality match as student and teacher. But with the Ramirez capable of a true flamenco sound, I learned to produce it.

It taught me how to play.

RNJ



Goldwinghai -> RE: Guitar choice advice (Apr. 30 2016 3:19:57)

I had a Cordoba cwes hybrid guitar sitting in the case for 10 years untouched until last Spring when I started taking flamenco guitar lessons. The Cordoba neck was a little too narrow at 49-50 mm, so I decided that I wanted a real flamenco guitar. Having heard good things about Camps, I ordered a Primera Negra directly from Camps. I am very happy with it. My guitar teacher really liked the guitar as well. This guitar is much better than the Cordoba in many ways. But I know there will be another guitar, a better guitar in my future. That will happen when I have a chance to play them. I believe in buying the best that you like and can afford, nothing to do with outgrowing the instrument. I like the sound of the Primera Negra even when I simply run my thumb over the strings. I like it so much that I practice 2-3 hours a day every day until my fingers feel tender and tired. When I trained my children soccer, I would buy the $200 Nike Vapor cleats that they had been dreaming of. My son even wore them going to bed. There was no problem getting them onto the soccer field to practice. If I continue to improve and play several hours a day, I would reward myself a new guitar with the tone and touch that I like better than the Camps. But if my passion for flamenco dies and the guitar remains in its case like my old Cordoba, no new guitar. That would be a sad day - for me. So my suggestion to the OP is to buy the guitar that he likes and not worrying about outgrowing it, then reward himself with a better one when the time comes. He would know when that time is.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Guitar choice advice (Apr. 30 2016 8:25:05)

quote:

How about some context?


Yes, context is a good thing, but you started with writing totally out of context (see below) and so I chimed in and gave my out of context version.
If you are a good student you can hit the limit of a cheapo instrument pretty fast. I would still advice to buy a 200$ used guitar and save for something decent because the 1k$ guitars have extremely poor consistancy. Later on the 200$ thing could be used as a take away guitar or a beginners baseball bat.

"Quote Mark2:
The idea of outgrowing a guitar-I don't get it. You play as well as you can regardless of what you are using. You get a better guitar(s) as you can and you carry on. If all I had was the Yamaha, it wouldn't hold me back. I'd be pretty much the same player. When I get a devoe it won't make me sound like Moraito, or make me able to play picado like Paco. It will make some things easier to play, and it will sound better. Not a magic bullet by any means IMO. "



Echi -> RE: Guitar choice advice (Apr. 30 2016 8:37:03)

quote:

I played for 15 years on an Amalio Burguet 2a.
Always satisfied, one day my frend came up with a Conde A26, I played it and after 5 min. I thought, now I am f***ed, to sound and play so much better on my own guitar takes me three years of more study. It really felt that way.....


Same situation with me.
I was really happy with my (good) guitar since a friend made me try his Manuel Caceres/ Arcangel.
Sh**, I ended up changing my tastes, my understanding and eventually guitar.

Just 2 things more: I agree with Anders. A hand made guitar is often way more. Nonetheless it's very difficult to find a guitar "tonally wide" and expressive with a medium/strong pulsacion and a "thick" note.
Usually you have to make a choice. The place where you play defines your priorities.
Finally, an used Sanchis Lopez or Sanchis Carpio (given they are quite inconsistent) can offer a lot of value for price. My old Sanchis Carpio is among the best guitars I played.



estebanana -> RE: Guitar choice advice (Apr. 30 2016 8:43:13)

One reason to buy a cheap guitar in the beginning is that it gives you something to move up to.

$1000.00 range is a muddle, unless you get lucky.



Cervantes -> RE: Guitar choice advice (Apr. 30 2016 16:21:09)

quote:


Finally, an used Sanchis Lopez or Sanchis Carpio (given they are quite inconsistent) can offer a lot of value for price. My old Sanchis Carpio is among the best guitars I played.


That is why I keep thinking the Sanchis Lopez 2F in the classifieds would be a good option. Shipping from UK to NYC shouldn't be that bad if the seller is willing. I would just ask for a recording of the guitar and ask questions about it. My guitar was $1K, I don't love it but its not holding me back, I don't regret buying it. Seems like a lot a nice guitars for sale in the UK compared to the US.



Ricardo -> RE: Guitar choice advice (Apr. 30 2016 17:53:52)

Regardless of your level, purchasing a high calibure guitar (normally above $4000 new or used) is an investment, and a low end guitar is simply not. Low end guitars have the advantage to be the "beater" guitar you take to the beach when you get serious about playing and don't want to worry about traveling with your "investment". I agree that the Sanchis guitars are impressive for the price, because they are cheaply made but have proper flamenco sound quality. They probably hold their original value for this reason (I paid $1500 for mine and I am sure I can get that if I sell it.). I don't really see it as an investment though, as I am not going to be able to sell it to get something better. I always recommend that a one guitar owner try to get their hands on a nice upper level guitar at whatever they can handle price wise.

Ricardo



tijeretamiel -> RE: Guitar choice advice (Apr. 30 2016 18:33:16)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echi

Finally, an used Sanchis Lopez or Sanchis Carpio (given they are quite inconsistent) can offer a lot of value for price. My old Sanchis Carpio is among the best guitars I played.


Is that the Bulerias?



Blondie#2 -> RE: Guitar choice advice (May 1 2016 13:20:15)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana
these solid top Japanese factory classicals from the late 70, through 80's hold their own. Why? Because the Japanese factories were not messing around and they made quality stuff that lasts, even though it is not hand made.


Interesting, it seems like it was a golden area for Japanese guitars in general. I remember one of the guitar mags running an article about acoustic steel strung guitars from the same period saying the same things (I had a solid top laminate sides Jap Takamine from that period which sounded great, wish I'd never sold it). Plus of course the electrics from that era include some legends too (the Tokai strats, for example).

Anyway, I quite fancy the idea of one of these classicals, not for flamenco but to get a classical with a decent tone at a bargain price. Its a bit OT for this thread so I'll PM you for some pointers if that's ok.



Echi -> RE: Guitar choice advice (May 1 2016 22:40:44)

quote:

Is that the Bulerias?

Yes it is.
I had to do some little jobs but eventually well worthy as the guitar came out really good.
I'm very happy.



tijeretamiel -> RE: Guitar choice advice (May 1 2016 22:46:27)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echi

Yes it is.
I had to do some little jobs but eventually well worthy as the guitar came out really good.
I'm very happy.


Ah great to hear the guitar is being enjoyed!



RobJe -> RE: Guitar choice advice (May 2 2016 10:37:46)

So to summarize ….

Your finances prevent you from buying a nice luthier made guitar. I guess most of us have been in that position for a few years. It was 5 years for me and then another 5 before I got something truly satisfactory. It still bugs me that in Madrid in 1962 if I had been able to raise £60 instead of the £30 that I spent I could have commissioned a new Arcangel Fernandez. This was the time when “a moment of madness” would have been the right thing.

A new cheap guitar is usually worth a lot less than you paid by the time you get it home.

Second-hand cheap guitars can be a good buy. You often need a lot of persistence to seek out one of these. When you move on you stand a chance of getting your money back.

It’s good to remind yourself of your goal by trying some nice guitars – get out there and make friends with people in your local flamenco community and/or visit some dealers who have some good guitars. I remember my goal being informed by playing a 60s Viuda y Sobrinos de Domingo Esteso in a tablao in Barcelona, a Miguel Rodriguez in a dealer in London, a Manuel de la Chica owned by a guitarist I played with and a guitar owned by my teacher and made by the Englishman Maurice Johnson who made about 35 pretty good flamenco guitars before he died unexpectedly. Once you are clearer about what you are missing you will be less likely to do something stupid.

Good luck!



Ricardo -> RE: Guitar choice advice (May 2 2016 11:51:28)

It might be about priorities for people. When I graduated college I had a grand total of about $6000 from savings and gifts. I knew I needed buy a car, food, a proper flamenco guitar, a place to live, and find a job quick. So I bought a $900 used car, and $4500 guitar that I still have, the car is long gone. At the time it was a no brainer, but then again I was quite serious about music in general and flamenco specifically. Sometimes it is hard for me to understand when people say their budget is "$x" because I don't know their priorities in life. I know some pro musicians that will buy $5000 of sound equipment, but use $500 guitars.



estebanana -> RE: Guitar choice advice (May 2 2016 12:05:37)

quote:



Interesting, it seems like it was a golden area for Japanese guitars in general. I remember one of the guitar mags running an article about acoustic steel strung guitars from the same period saying the same things (I had a solid top laminate sides Jap Takamine from that period which sounded great, wish I'd never sold it). Plus of course the electrics from that era include some legends too (the Tokai strats, for example).


Yeah go ahead. I see them on Tokyo craigsist for $80.00 bucks, but you have to pick them up....hahahah



estebanana -> RE: Guitar choice advice (May 2 2016 12:10:09)

I wish I still had my Opel Kadet wagon I paid about $900.00 bucks for. Damn I would rebuild the chassis and the engine it was great little car. It's true what Anders Dad says about Opel Kadet.



meknyc -> RE: Guitar choice advice (May 2 2016 14:05:33)

And here I go again.

Tried a few ones from Craigslist, but nothing that was worth the money or in acceptable shape. I will keep looking.

I entered a nice shop and teased myself with a few new higher end. I did enjoy a Sanchis Bulerias more than the Primera, but I can't see a way to stretch that far. The Conde A26 were painful to leave. The owner suggested I check out the Mundo Flamenco 2F. The price is right, sound clip is nice, but it does not sell it outside the EU.

I guess I could listen to many of you and try too stretch to a Sanchis 2F from Mundo, but I would not be able to try on first. Is it smart?



RobJe -> RE: Guitar choice advice (May 2 2016 14:07:10)

quote:

It might be about priorities for people


You are right. Who needs to eat anyway?

I was never good enough to consider a career as a soloist. Playing for a group was badly paid in the UK with not enough work to consider it as a career so it became a part-time activity. I played under an assumed name so that my employers didn't recognise me in reviews. I do regret not spending more on my first reasonably good guitar but I made up for it in old age!

Rob



estebanana -> RE: Guitar choice advice (May 2 2016 15:26:30)

Rob, what was your nom de guitarre?



Sr. Martins -> RE: Guitar choice advice (May 2 2016 15:44:08)

quote:

I guess I could listen to many of you and try too stretch to a Sanchis 2F from Mundo, but I would not be able to try on first. Is it smart?


I've been looking at Sanchis guitars myself. I've found that almost all of them were drilled by a drunk sailor. Doesn't matter the model, the holes at the tie block are "always" messed up somewhere.

edit: Many guitars are like that, not only Sanchis. You decide if it bothers you or not.



RobJe -> RE: Guitar choice advice (May 2 2016 15:57:57)

quote:

Rob, what was your nom de guitarre?


I had two. I could tell you but then I would have to shoot you.

Closest call was when someone came to the dressing room and told me that his girlfriend had said that I was the exact double of her mathematics lecturer - uncanny but impossible!

Rob



Morante -> RE: Guitar choice advice (May 2 2016 17:18:43)

" It still bugs me that in Madrid in 1962 if I had been able to raise £60 instead of the £30 that I spent I could have commissioned a new Arcangel Fernandez."

My first Spanish guitar I bought as a poor student when I was on holiday in Torre del Mar for 900 pesetas. It was ¾ size, plywood and pinsabeta (a tree from the sierra de Andalucía, much used in the time of Franco for cheap guitars.

I learned to play “flamenco” on it, but when we formed a Peña and began to receive offers to play, I decided to buy a decent guitar. I phoned Ray Mitchell in London, he phoned Rafael Romero in Madrid and the consensus was that the best cheap guitar was the Estudio model de Conde.

Still relatively poor, I organized summer holiday in Madrid and presented myself in Calle Gravina, where I was attended by Faustino. He offered me half a dozen guitars which I rejected for poor workmanship, eventually accepting the only decent one, which cost 15,000 pesetas, all that I could afford. At this point, Faustino brought out a media luna, signed by himself, which was another world.

But it cost 35,000 pesetas and I did not have the money. Así es la vida.



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