RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (Full Version)

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Echi -> RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (Apr. 30 2016 22:44:44)

My experience.
I don't mean at all to claim I'm an expert of bracing patterns. I have some though and wanted to share my opinion.

Would you say that this is a common bracing pattern for flamenco guitars made serially?

Anyway, I wouldn't use the Torres pattern for a flamenco guitar.
I generally use a 5 struts almost parallel racing with a contrapuente and 2 closing bars.
My Bellido, Manzanero, Arcangel and Sanchis Carpio have similar patterns. If someone likes, I can post the pictures.

Anyway my guess is that the most common bracing pattern for flamenco is the typical Santos pattern, with struts almost parallel and without the 2 closing bars.
Just my opinion, obviously.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (May 1 2016 8:15:36)

Echi
Your ideas about guitarbuilding are very square and i dont think you help yourself or any other builder or otherwise interested. You only limit yourself and make others believe something that is based speculation.

Yes, I think using 7struts is VERY normal. I cant say that 5 or 7 is used the most because both are very normal here in Spain. There are more flamenco guitar plans with 7 struts (Barbero, Reyes, Santos Hernandez ) than with 5 struts. When i worked in a shop selling factory (Valencia and Alicante) and luthier made guitars (Bellido), there were clearly more 7 strut guitars than 5 strut.

Its not important. What matters is how you work the sticks. The DeVoe has the struts layed out with more angle than I would do, but I´m 100% sure he knows what he is doing and I´ve seen many flamenco guitars like that.

Personally, I have made maybe some 60 guitars with 7 struts and another 60 with 5 struts . At this very moment I prefer 5 struts for my blancas and on the negras I like both. It depends on the soundboard.



Echi -> RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (May 1 2016 8:46:36)

I agree with the most you said and agree also that I'm a little square in my opinions.
I don't think to make speculations or to deceive people though.
In this case, my (humble/ squared ) opinion is that the Torres bracing pattern (7 fan struts + 2 closing bars with the apex of the fan around the 14th fret) is not ideal for flamenco guitars serially made.
Even though it obviously can work, I don't see it commonly used in the market of flamenco guitars.



Cervantes -> RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (May 1 2016 17:35:32)

Well I decided to change strings again. I had a Savarez Alliance for the G string and really like it so I decided to replace the Luthier 20 treble strings with Alliance. I had tried some carbon in the past and decided I didn't like them because they had a "fake" sound. The buzzing on the B string went away and strings are definitely louder with more attack but lack the warmth of nylon strings. They do have sort of sparkle to the sound and rasgueados sound much better with less nail noise. The tension is a bit higher so maybe that is helping. My guitar does have a flabby sound to it so I think these strings help with that.



Leñador -> RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (May 1 2016 17:39:31)

quote:

The tension is a bit higher so maybe that is helping.

I know [:D][:D][:D]
Set a toothpick under your bridge for experiments sake and I bet you it'll sound even better.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (May 2 2016 8:09:47)

quote:


I agree with the most you said and agree also that I'm a little square in my opinions.
I don't think to make speculations or to deceive people though.
In this case, my (humble/ squared ) opinion is that the Torres bracing pattern (7 fan struts + 2 closing bars with the apex of the fan around the 14th fret) is not ideal for flamenco guitars serially made.
Even though it obviously can work, I don't see it commonly used in the market of flamenco guitars.


Well, I´m glad that we can discuss these things quietly.
I would never make a flamenco 7 fan struts + 2 closing bars with the apex of the fan around the 14th fret like the original Torres and I believe the Lester DeVoe guitar has its apex at a much lower fret number as well. It also has shorter closing struts. But all these 7 strut bracings are based on Torres and with just very fine adjustments they can be made to sound very flamenco.
So may I ask you: When you say that you dont see that bracing pattern used a lot on flamenco guitars, do you mean the original Torres bracing or 7 piece bracing in general?



Echi -> RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (May 2 2016 9:29:56)

Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear.
I meant the proper Torres bracing (the one he commonly used to use for the large plantillas) with 7 struts with the apex of the fan around the 8-14 fret + 2 closing bars converging from the external struts to the central one.
In my opinion this bracing doesn't favour an ideal torsion of the top for a flamenco guitar (but tweaking properly the struts, as you said).
The pattern I see more common is the typical 7 bracing pattern a la Santos, with the struts a little more parallel and no (or reduced) closing bars.



Ricardo -> RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (May 2 2016 12:02:35)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echi

I don't know many flamenco guitar makers using that bracing pattern.
Of course if DeVoe uses it regularly, it means the pattern does it's job also for this purpose, but I wouldn't say that this is a common bracing pattern for a flamenco guitar.
I know: the bracing pattern itself, without reference to the characteristics of the wood is just a small part. I'm still not convinced it works well for a semi- industrial guitar though.


The books I have seen that show patterns, I have to say the variety is quite wide for both classical and flamenco guitars. I would think flamenco guitars would permit less but it's not what I have noticed. The devoe looks like a cedar top... That might be a reason for the different style pattern? I am only familiar with his spruce tops.



Echi -> RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (May 2 2016 14:05:37)

Maybe you refer to the book of Ulrich, which is extremely nice btw.
You can anyway catch some similarities.

Unfortunately, as Anders said many times, the bracing patterns - taken alone - without other infos, like the shape of the struts, the size of the plantilla and the modulus of Young /weight of the top - can be deceiving.
If you can take a braced top in your hands and flex it here and there, this would tell you something more.
In the case of the Torres pattern, it supports uniformly the whole top, granting a certain cross grain stiffness, which I don't find too good for a flamenco guitar.

To make an example, to judge a picture of a pattern it's a little like to judge a guitar just from you tube.
There are things you can't get from there.
But in case you had tried that guitar or a similar one before, then the same YouTube video can tell you a lot more.

Coming back to the topic, sometimes the builder uses different bracing patterns but his guitars sound very similar.
In fact is more important to understand the principle behind the use of a certain feature than the feature itself.
Other example: Once I wanted to make a Reyes copy.
I bought the GaL plan, surfed in Internet (read Tom's comments etc.) and studied the project but the result wasn't satisfying.
Later on I had the chance to try carefully a Reyes, to look carefully inside and tap the top here and there.
The result was way better. I got many more infos having the instrument in my hands and playing it.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (May 2 2016 17:38:34)

Ok, thanks for clearing things.
We´ve actually been discussing without disagreeing. Something that happens often on the internet. [:D]
Just as a plan itself doesnt say much compared to touching an instrument built to that plan, discussing on the internet can often be a bit the same.

So for judgement only......[8D]
here´s a soundboard for a spruce blanca that I made 7 years ago, when i mostly worked 7 struts:



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Manitas de Lata -> RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (Mar. 11 2025 0:21:00)

jesus the science of this




Echi -> RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (Mar. 11 2025 11:13:10)

I don’t agree to the most he said.
I have this guy in great consideration and I am sure he knows how to deal with the guitars he made but I firmly believe the last thing to do is to share the idea you should shave your fan bracing down.

First rule is to work on your own guitars and never on guitars of other makers.
Second rule is that in case you decide to"fine tune" a factory guitar, then it's a good custom to stick a label explaining what you have done.

It happened to me to do some experiments, mostly to correct problems of wolf notes. In these cases I followed the advices of Alan Carruth.

For the matter of the main air freq, I find much more effective to work on the sound hole diameter or on the back struts and the main transverse bar.
I f I had to work on the top, I always tried to add weight (mostly on the antinodes or in some spots close to the bridge) and with a HHG, so that this can be reversible.

To lower a fan strut doesn't affect the mani air freq consistently and instead bear a strong impact on the stiffness/elasticity (aka [I]pulsacion[/I]) of the top, which is extremely relevant factor in a flamenco guitar.

To be honest I don’t even agree to what I wrote in this post 9 years ago.
At that time I was restoring 2 guitars with a cedar top (a Gerundino and a Sanchis Carpio) and both the guitars had some rattling issues.



estebanana -> RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (Mar. 11 2025 12:10:19)

I think Pablo is spot on with the this talk. I’ve arrived at this same idea in my own work over the years and he lays out a few basic concepts that for a Torres/Hauser/Santos situation with bracing will work consistently.


Thin ribs, I like to go a bit under 2mm and depending on how stiff the rib is I’ve gone as much as 1.6 mm thick. The only thing you should do is put a light cross grain stick a few inches below the waist on the flat area to keep it stiff. I think especially with Blancas it’s important to have light ribs. Light ribs help lower the resonances and also act like a filter for sound, thin ribs do not isolate the top as much and the whole thing vibrates. This is a direct opposition to the school of building that dictates very stiff torsion resistant ribs that are laminated. ( you can have thin laminated ribs too, milage varies)

The other thing he said about the two lower closing bars and the two outside fans is crucial, and it’s also why Five fan designs work so well for flamenco guitars.

He’s getting at the idea of the rim and area about 50 to 60 mm wide around the outline of the guitar is an important area to understand. That whole area has to work together and be consistent in flexibility and strength. This is where the situation of building up to the threshold of collapse comes into play. You can very easily over work it under work the swath of 50 mm in from the edge, it’s how you feather out the top and the braces to open that area up and make it flexible that really turns the guitar on, that’s the light switch.

Some people like myself and many ( the majority I’d say) of makers have a feeling for this thinning and flexing and some don’t. But I think what he’s saying has been true for me and I arrived at pretty much the same conclusions by making my own decisions, revisions and mistakes myself.

Of course the point is to do this stuff 90% before you assemble the guitar and maybe sand the top a tiny bit after assembly. If you’re sanding the inside of your guitar after you assemble you are working too hard and not in the right way. In the last five years the best guitars I’ve made have been via the points he’s making. If I were to tell someone starting to build one video to watch about how to treat the final thickness and heights of braces it would be this one, because it’s so condensed, you could work off that idea because it closes the gap between floating out in space with 59 smarty amateurs blabbing and one succinct pro giving you very dialed dimensions.

This is the problem I have with the tone generating thrust of teaching, it’s very non committal to actual useful dimensions and begins the approach with an intellectualization of tactile sensation and experience. I see the tail wagging the dog, the dog is the teacher who tells you that for this guitar architecture of this particular style of building there are close general parameters for dimensions of braces and tops. You take that at face value and build with it, experiencing tactility FIRST. Then later you can hone it in with tone generating devices and cast oregano or sawdust on your vibrating top.

If you have base of dimensions given to you by a teacher you can use them as a reference guide which is a vernacular form of engineering. Engineering can be done by math, or by trial and error in the context of guitar making, the outcome is subjective ( sound) and the engineering is intuitive based on your experience with the last few guitars you made. You remove material from top and braces or you leave material based on feel. The argument by the tone generating crowd is that your feeling or tactile response is fallible and shouldn’t be entrusted to thicknessing. I think this is wrong and problematic because it’s operating by negating tactile development.

I have three anecdotes to offer which anyone can take or leave.

1. My teacher Gene Clark had a view that negating a tactile position was an act of fear.

2. My first teacher Burdell Tenney the violin bow maker said “You’re either an instrument maker, or you’re not.” Meaning some guys & gals have it and some don’t.

3. Obiwan Kenobi “Trust your feelings Luke.”



Ricardo -> RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (Mar. 11 2025 14:29:11)

Let's change the name of Pitch of the guitar to "bitch" of the guitar. [:D]

First of all, as a player, I was always confused and Luthier's need to take this fact into account, because I suspect it is the main issue when people are desiring a Lower "pitch" of their guitar. It is NOT the freaking top. We can't freaking hear that, sorry guys. It is the slap back of the back that resonated and affected our notes and playing. Can't remember who pointed this out on here, but sorry when luthiers say "I build guitar top at F#", and then I put mic on the guitar and out of the speaker honking like a rabid dog is the note A such that an notch filter must be applied, then what the heck did that "F#" have to do with any damn thing? It is meaningless. You guys think that is "canceling" that A note resonance? The heck it is, it is not doing its "Job" then, like, at all.

So I have guitars resonating G# and G, and the only difference is that a different notch filter needs to be applied. Otherwise almost all guitars are sounding at A. Let's call it the "bitch' of the guitar. [:D]

So now, luthiers need to address THIS pitch issue, not the other one. How do you alter that note we can actually hear? How to de emphasize it or change it? Sand the BACK???



Echi -> RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (Mar. 11 2025 15:11:31)

A clarification is needed: each part of the guitar (top ,back, bridge, sides etc.) is tuned to a certain frequency.
The main frequency we are talking about are the air pitch inside the box and the top pitch.

I appreciate the points of Estebana.
With regards of the main air pitch, you have to consider the guitar as an Helmolz box. This entails that the fan braces are less determinant than elements like the soundhole, the back and the sides thickness if you mean to drop or rise the frequency.
After many years of guitars with double sides, makers are rediscovering the benefits of low pitched guitars (hence the thin sides) but this is something much relevsnt in classical than flamenco guitars. For instance a Dammann guitar is pitched at D# like a Torres while a Smallman is pitched very high as the box is very rigid.

I had a very good guitar with the box air pitched at F#. It was a Gerundino copy I made: very nice basses but predominant over the trebles and with some short notes around F, F# due to many overtones.
I then increased the soundhole diameter of 6 mm and the pitch went up to G sorting out both the problems brilliantly. The guitar sounds much more flamenco now.
This experience brought me to understand better the point of Ricardo, that a flamenco guitar should be pitched between G-A etc.

My point with Requena is that his explanation works for understanding the guitar building process, not to intervene in the already made guitar.



Ricardo -> RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (Mar. 11 2025 15:20:26)

quote:

I had a very good guitar with air pitched at F#. Very nice basses but predominant over the trebles and with some short notes around F, F# due to many overtones.


I would have loved to experience such a thing. Never in my life have I put a guitar to a mic and out pops the F#. It is always A, every guitar (except two or three that are G# or G). I mean just for variety I want to hear an annoying "F#". "Short notes" as in they are getting cancelled, I just never experience that either, even on this strong "A"guitars. I mean, I have been on tour or whatever, and can change strings to the that pitch by taping on the guitar. A 440. Even I did it to the G tuned guitar [:D] (like there is till an "A" coming out of that thing somewhere). I get that Luthiers think the F# or whatever of the top is cancelling the big picture resonance, but the effect is minimal. I find it weird that you say the hole is made wider and it changes the focus to a HIGHER pitch? I don't get that. I do get it that the top being A means the guitar might explode. [:D] But why not address the "A" issue instead?



Echi -> RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (Mar. 11 2025 18:19:55)

Take a look at a website like Siccas which records the main freq. and pass through the specs of the guitars. They report the box air freq. and you will notice a distinct variability between different guitars.
Not sure if the Urlick book does it.
I myself have noticed a certain variability also in flamenco guitars even though the majority are tuned around G.
Modern Conde are made with particularly thick plates hence the high pitched air.

The guitar physics take advantage of the studies about the so called Helmholtz resonance.
Basically you can imagine the guitar as a box with a a hole (the Soundhole) through which the air is mostly pumped.
Of course the dimension of the hole and the thickness of the plate play the main role.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (Mar. 12 2025 3:17:01)

One way of finding the¨main air resonance¨is to sing or hum into the soundhole, starting at a low pitch and gradually going up. At a certain pitch the whole instrument will resonate. You can feel it vibrating as you hold it.

I use a Seiko SA1200 tuner to measure the main air resonant frequency. The tuner works in various modes. The one for this measurement displays, with the letters across the top, the note closest to the pitch that the tuner hears at the moment, and the number of cents sharp or flat with the needle. All pitches are referred to A=440 Hz. A cent is
1/100 of a half step in an equally tempered scale.



A guitar has several prominent resonances, the main air resonance being the lowest in pitch. As Echi says, the volume of the box and the soundhole function as a Helmholtz resonator. Another common use of the Helmholtz resonator is in loudspeaker enclosures. There it is employed to reinforce the fading free air bass response of the driver.

The figure shows the resonanances of guitar built and measured by the scientifically inclined luthier Al Carruth. He used a fairly complex electromechanical setup and computer software.



There is a prominent resonance around A=440Hz, labeled "Long dipole." In this mode the bridge rocks around its long axis. When the part of the soundboard between the bridge and the soundhole goes up, the part between the bridge and the heel goes down, and vice versa.

On the chart the lowest resonance labeled "air or cavity" is more than two octaves below the long dipole resonance, in the vicinity of F. It's also ten dB lower in amplitude, that is, lower in amplitude by a factor of ten.

But I should point out that Carruth's measurement setup detects only the motion of the top, not the overall sound output of the instrument. It seems likely to me that a greater proportion of the sound from from the main air resonance may come from the soundhole than it does for the various vibration modes of the top. This accords with the advice not to point the microphone directly at the soundhole while recording.

If you put this guitar in a PA system feedback loop, the amplification system may lock onto one of the stronger resonances, not the weaker air resonance. The Long dipole mode would supply the "A" Ricardo keeps getting.

I speculate that people selling or building guitars mention the main air resonance because it is easy to measure by singing and using a tuner, while measuring the other resonances requires a much more complex and expensive setup--unless you happen to have a PA system handy.

RNJ

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estebanana -> RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (Mar. 12 2025 4:43:58)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Let's change the name of Pitch of the guitar to "bitch" of the guitar. [:D]



Okay but some guitars are machos and in fairness and the spirit of DEI should also be called Cabrones.



estebanana -> RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (Mar. 12 2025 4:47:55)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echi

A clarification is needed: each part of the guitar (top ,back, bridge, sides etc.) is tuned to a certain frequency.
The main frequency we are talking about are the air pitch inside the box and the top pitch.

I appreciate the points of Estebana.



I know about this stuff but have reached the point where I DGAF because you don’t need it. And messing with already constructed guitars made in factories or by other people is against my religion because it’s a bottom feeder activity and not worth my time or effort.



estebanana -> RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (Mar. 12 2025 4:54:53)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

I had a very good guitar with air pitched at F#. Very nice basses but predominant over the trebles and with some short notes around F, F# due to many overtones.


I would have loved to experience such a thing. Never in my life have I put a guitar to a mic and out pops the F#. It is always A, every guitar (except two or three that are G# or G). I mean just for variety I want to hear an annoying "F#". "Short notes" as in they are getting cancelled, I just never experience that either, even on this strong "A"guitars. I mean, I have been on tour or whatever, and can change strings to the that pitch by taping on the guitar. A 440. Even I did it to the G tuned guitar [:D] (like there is till an "A" coming out of that thing somewhere). I get that Luthiers think the F# or whatever of the top is cancelling the big picture resonance, but the effect is minimal. I find it weird that you say the hole is made wider and it changes the focus to a HIGHER pitch? I don't get that. I do get it that the top being A means the guitar might explode. [:D] But why not address the "A" issue instead?



You see why you can’t argue with the tone tweakers ?

The people who use this system in their work that are great builders don’t go around chattering about it. And the ones who go on and on about don’t make better guitars than everyone else. For some individuals the analysis becomes a diversion or obsession.


You can explain the direct way to brace a top and feed a person some dimensions to try to begin with and they will make an acceptable guitar very soon. But if you broach the subject of just giving dimensions based on average stiffness and flexibility of top wood with a tone head, they will launch into a discourse about modes and the discovery of the process to manufacture Venitan blinds for mid - century Scandinavian custom build by architects from Japan country homes. The specificity of detail and over abundance of non intrinsic information will lull the innocent recipient of the discourse into a comatose state due to the confusion in thier mind at trying to understand the horror vacuui of the discoursers explaining.

It’s hell on earth

Whereas, you could simply listen to Tio Pablo in the video and work on that with your tactile memory and intuition. Tone generator stuff is for people who want shortcuts, even though they don’t usually admit it. And some are souls who just seize upon this because they need answers and the guitar is one of the mute and mysterious Sphinxes of the engineering world. I know a guy who makes violins that works in aerodynamics as a day job, he’s says violin dynamics are more complex. I have a friend who’s a very accomplished guitar maker who is about to retire from career in robotics engineering and build full time. He makes excellent guitars and has no interest in tone generation analysis in his guitar building practice. He’s been building for 30 years at a part time professional level.

The folks who are driven to get the Sphinx to cooperate and spill it’s secret knowledge are driven, they cannot help it. It’s a problem they have to solve and the guitar just happens to challenge them with a serious and profound puzzle. I get it, they are driven, to them I say do your thing.

So there are advocates for tone analysis and non interested parties here in this field that both build professional level work. The majority of traditional style makers don’t mess with it. And for me the annoying thing about it, that is when I used to care, is that they’ve taught players to prejudge guitars based on air resonance pitch. That used to bother me, it no longer does. They should take X-Rays and CT scans or whatever medical imaging technology they want to use and advance it as a sales pitch. I simply do not care.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (Mar. 12 2025 8:41:21)

quote:

I simply do not care


I don't care either, nor have I ever bought a guitar from a maker who seemed to.

I just wondered what Ricardo was on about, saying all the guitars in his experience generated PA feedback on "A".

Later, scrolling through my "downloads' folder looking for something else, I came across Carruth's paper. I'm an engineer/physicist/mathematician, so it was a two-minute re-read. Sure enough, there was the "A" in the long dipole mode of the top.

I keep a spreadsheet on background to track the value of some stuff I own. Typing in one formula on it showed that yes, the main air resonance was down around "F".

So I wrote the post above explaining that Ricardo and the air mode wizards were talking about two different things.

My wordiness was no doubt due to my work experience. It often involved explaining engineering stuff to various audiences. Over the years I learned to write pretty fast--sometimes about stuff I didn't really care about.

RNJ



estebanana -> RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (Mar. 12 2025 11:38:21)

I’m not talking about you Richard, I’m raw from being talked over by guitar makers who do that. I’m a bit aggressive about it because I think it’s not the best idea to teach it with the superior attitude that some of its advocates push. There are a lot of them who are dismissive about tactile experience. I wasn’t talking about ‘civilians’ but other guitar makers who snicker at tactile experiencez Amongst ourselves in private conversations the luthiers who are not interested in the tone generation game have strong feelings about it because were frustrated that it gets digested by customers and then they second guess that you aren’t ‘ with it’ if you don’t do it. I know top guitar makers who’ll tell you in private it’s complete bullsh@t, but in public they won’t say anything so as not to offend anyone. I’m just f@cking tired of hearing about it, especially since Pablo’s video explains it so clearly. It’s offensive to me that his knowledge is being challenged or dismissed when he’s explaining the most direct way to modulate the pitch of the box.

I have all the books written about this stuff with all the math, it looks like a foreign language to me and makes no sense. You can have the books if you’re interested.

Sorry, the snide part of my comment want aimed at you.



RobF -> RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (Mar. 12 2025 13:17:32)

quote:

...You can explain the direct way to brace a top and feed a person some dimensions to try to begin with and they will make an acceptable guitar very soon. But if you broach the subject of just giving dimensions based on average stiffness and flexibility of top wood with a tone head, they will launch into a discourse about modes and the discovery of the process to manufacture Venitan blinds for mid - century Scandinavian custom build by architects from Japan country homes. The specificity of detail and over abundance of non intrinsic information will lull the innocent recipient of the discourse into a comatose state due to the confusion in thier mind at trying to understand the horror vacuui of the discoursers explaining...


You took the words right out of my mouth there. Actually I tried to read that out loud and couldn't even pronounce half of them, let alone think them, so you actually didn't, hahahah. Joking! [:D]

Anyways, I'm kind of sorry I missed this discussion until this morning. I saw the thread when it first popped up and realized it was yet another necropost and decided to ignore it. But now that I've scanned it, it's an interesting discussion. You can put me more in the Pablo banana camp on this. Although I do use, well, used to use, that power spectrum iPhone app that disappeared off my phone when I got a new one. But that was mainly to show people pictorially that what my ears were telling me, which I was then trying to explain to them, was actually the truth.

It can be exasperating when people start asking about resonances, top pitches, and Chladni pattern frequencies when checking out a guitar you made. It's not like it's some kind of national security secret or anything, but when you explain not every maker is concerning themselves with that they almost get offended. I once was showing some guitars at a show and one of the organizers asked if they could try a cedar topped one in a quiet room. I said OK. He came back and complimented the warmth and musicality of the instrument and asked how it was braced. I said I was in the habit of doing a Sitka lattice for the cedar classicals at that point in time. He acted surprised and said he didn't expect a lattice braced guitar could sound so traditional. He started asking about pitches, etc...and I said I honestly don't know. I don't know if it helped my cause, I suspect it didn't. I should have just made something up. I mean, there's only like twelve guesses, and you can eliminate about nine of them right off the bat, so where'd be the harm? I've read all the books, too. Which is a bald faced lie. I *have* all the books is more to the truth, but actually reading some of them, I mean page by excruciating page, is too much like work. Some people devour and thrive on this stuff, however, and if it works for them and gives them pleasure and they make nice guitars and people like them then, by George, that is wonderful and I think it's great, too. Just don't ask me to do it.

Honestly, there's more than one way to skin a cat. I think that's pretty salient.



estebanana -> RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (Mar. 12 2025 14:20:50)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobF

quote:

...You can explain the direct way to brace a top and feed a person some dimensions to try to begin with and they will make an acceptable guitar very soon. But if you broach the subject of just giving dimensions based on average stiffness and flexibility of top wood with a tone head, they will launch into a discourse about modes and the discovery of the process to manufacture Venitan blinds for mid - century Scandinavian custom build by architects from Japan country homes. The specificity of detail and over abundance of non intrinsic information will lull the innocent recipient of the discourse into a comatose state due to the confusion in thier mind at trying to understand the horror vacuui of the discoursers explaining...


You took the words right out of my mouth there. Actually I tried to read that out loud and couldn't even pronounce half of them, let alone think them, so you actually didn't, hahahah. Joking! [:D]

Anyways, I'm kind of sorry I missed this discussion until this morning. I saw the thread when it first popped up and realized it was yet another necropost and decided to ignore it. But now that I've scanned it, it's an interesting discussion. You can put me more in the Pablo banana camp on this. Although I do use, well, used to use, that power spectrum iPhone app that disappeared off my phone when I got a new one. But that was mainly to show people pictorially that what my ears were telling me, which I was then trying to explain to them, was actually the truth.

It can be exasperating when people start asking about resonances, top pitches, and Chladni pattern frequencies when checking out a guitar you made. It's not like it's some kind of national security secret or anything, but when you explain not every maker is concerning themselves with that they almost get offended. I once was showing some guitars at a show and one of the organizers asked if they could try a cedar topped one in a quiet room. I said OK. He came back and complimented the warmth and musicality of the instrument and asked how it was braced. I said I was in the habit of doing a Sitka lattice for the cedar classicals at that point in time. He acted surprised and said he didn't expect a lattice braced guitar could sound so traditional. He started asking about pitches, etc...and I said I honestly don't know. I don't know if it helped my cause, I suspect it didn't. I should have just made something up. I mean, there's only like twelve guesses, and you can eliminate about nine of them right off the bat, so where'd be the harm? I've read all the books, too. Which is a bald faced lie. I *have* all the books is more to the truth, but actually reading some of them, I mean page by excruciating page, is too much like work. Some people devour and thrive on this stuff, however, and if it works for them and gives them pleasure and they make nice guitars and people like them then, by George, that is wonderful and I think it's great, too. Just don't ask me to do it.

Honestly, there's more than one way to skin a cat. I think that's pretty salient.



Preach it my fine Canadian friend



Morante -> RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (Mar. 12 2025 16:17:32)

Richard
you should stop using these new fancy tuners. When I refused my new Reyes Hijo because the harmonico at the 12th was perfect and the note was half a tone flat, Papa Reyes came out and
insisted that the tuner did not work!

How can you argue with a legenda???
[:@][:@][:@]



Echi -> RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (Mar. 12 2025 18:19:13)

Just a clarification: In the introduction of video, Pablo Requena explains that the purpose of the video itself is to explain how to lower the main air freq. on his already made guitars.

My point was (and is) that I don't suggest to try to do it, and particularly not by altering the fan bracing.

If you have to (and I pointed out the case of wolf notes) better to understand where the conflicting freq is and to work on the back and sound hole.

This matter is something completely different from the tactile experience and intuition which is a valuable way of knowledge as people like Torres Santos Reyes etc. proved.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (Mar. 12 2025 19:00:23)

Among luthiers I have run across who have written about "scientific" experiments, Al Carruth has been the most prolific.

When he lived on the outskirts of Boston he had apprentices who studied engineering at MIT. Some of them provided him with info about technology that was useful in devising his tests.

Despite all the time and energy Carruth has devoted to the subject, he says, "With measurements we can tell good guitars from bad ones, but we can't tell good guitars from great ones."

All the makers I have bought from or admired have aspired to make great ones.

RNJ



Richard Jernigan -> RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (Mar. 12 2025 19:13:43)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

Richard
you should stop using these new fancy tuners. When I refused my new Reyes Hijo because the harmonico at the 12th was perfect and the note was half a tone flat, Papa Reyes came out and
insisted that the tuner did not work!

How can you argue with a legenda???
[:@][:@][:@]


I have el cheapo tuners on my guitars. I use them to get close. Once the tuner indicates "perfection," I finish tuning by ear.

That takes care of the open strings. The rest of playing in tune is up to the left hand, and the ears.

RNJ



Richard Jernigan -> RE: How can I make my guitar less noisy (Mar. 12 2025 19:35:25)

quote:

I have all the books written about this stuff with all the math, it looks like a foreign language to me and makes no sense. You can have the books if you’re interested.


I bought a couple of big, thick books when you asked me what I thought about them. One was about "theory," the other was about construction. I looked at the theory one for a while.

I concluded that it was a mishmash of approximations which didn't come anywhere near a unified and comprehensive theory of the guitar.

So much of what the player experiences is not measured by any of the approaches that I have seen in my admittedly casual reading on the subject.

I spent maybe an hour measuring the main air resonances of the seven or eight guitars I had at one time. I did it because an email appeared out of the blue asking about a particular guitar I owned. I ignored it.

The stranger persisted. I told him I was busy. After a while he asked again, so I did the measurement. Just for the hell of it I did the measurement for all of my guitars. It didn't take long, but I concluded it was a waste of time.

Instruments with nearly the same main air resonance and action sounded quite different, and had different pulsaciones. I perceived no correlation between the pitch of the resonance and the sound of the instrument.

When I replied to the questioner, just to get him off my back, I told him he was barking up the wrong tree.

RNJ



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