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DavidRG -> RE: Interview with the flamenco guitar player Tino Van der Sman (Mar. 3 2016 13:59:03)
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OK, machopicasso, here it goes! (I'm sorry, it's rather long):
Interview with flamenco guitarist Tino van der Sman: 'Even when I play classical music or copla, my guitar always sounds flamenco'.
His family name is Dutch, but he's got a flamenco heart. This guitarist born in The Hague, the Netherlands, in 1974, has been for over 17 years in the flamenco scene and has spent his whole life studying and playing alongside the most outstanding artists of our country. These days he is presenting his third album, 'Curioso impertinente' and I have been able to interview him for the episode number 22 of my radio show. As I could not include all the conversation in the program, I leave here the full transcript of the interview.
What idea did you have in mind at the time of recording the album?
I don't know if it's my lack of quality, or my laziness, I don't know, but I don't think in advance what kind of record I'm going to do. I would like to have that quality, indeed, I'd like to say 'Hey, I want it to be this way' but it doesn' happen. It comes to me, it comes up with the songs that I write. Sometimes I'm asked to do some music for a stage play and inadvertently years go by and I happen to have some material to make an album, I start to gather material... and with this album, in the end, when I finished it I was amazed by how varied it is, in the sense that there are things that sound like classical guitar, there's copla, there's also flamenco, of course ... because even when I play classical music or copla, my guitar always sounds flamenco because, oddly enough, I grew up with flamenco.
Does it also happen when you are writing a song?
It depends a little. Sometimes, especially in the flamenco styles, a falseta comes to me and after writing ten falsetas I choose five of them that mix well together, as in the case of the bulería or the alegrías that you can find in the record. There is also a theme song that, although it's not sung by anybody, it's actually a song and I really thought carefully all the notes and I've kept myself close to that. Inside the small composition that a falseta is I think a lot, there's a moment of inspiration and then I create something, but at a small level. In a bigger level it doesn't happen. Now I'm starting to do it, by the way, having an idea and developing it. In this case your phrasing is much longer. Art itself, I don't know if all the Spanish art but the Andalucian art is very short, it has always been the task, the 'ole', we're always looking for the 'ole', the 'little kick' for bulerías...
Perhaps because falsetas are always placed among the verses of a song
Exactly. But art itself ... it's not for nothing that there is a prize for the most magical moment of the Biennial in Seville. They reward a brief fragment of a show that lasts an hour and a half, they reward the ten seconds that are magical, which is odd and very nice too. But it makes guitar songs be very fragmentary also because we have always thought in a short way. And I still find it hard to make a longer phrasing or longer theme songs or having a whole song already planned in a specific way.
In fact the old flamenco guitar was a sum of falsetas
Exactly, and it's still this way very often. Manolo Sanlúcar was one of the first ones who broke it with 'Tauromagia' and then 'Medea' and other records he did. And there are some specific works out there, but I believe that there are not many records written as a whole, even if the songs are consistent I think it happens by chance, that's what I think.
In your record we can also find songs that do not follow a particular flamenco style
Yeah, well, I love the flamenco styles but I also admit that styles are a big limitation. I don't want to spend my whole life playing 'alegrias', I also need to discover new horizons, therefore this album, even if it's a flamenco album, only has three or four flamenco styles.
How did the collaboration with Rocío Márquez come up?
It was somewhat by chance. I was looking for someone to sing that song, which is a popular song of Armenia that came to me from a girl whose origins are half Armenian and half American, a dancer who worked with me and I said 'Hey, I have this melody and I I think it fits with a poem of Luis Cernuda' and we fixed it together. And then I looked for someone who could sing it and I found it hard to find the right voice for some reason. And one day we were working together I mounted the song and she offered herself to sing it, she really wanted to sing it and that's why it's on the record, because she kindly offered herself and since then we have a very beautiful friendship.
Rocio's voice is very clean and has an excellent pitch, right?
Yes, and she is very clear about what he is doing, which I like. I learned a lot with her at the time of recording. For example, the fact that she records without 'reverb' which I did with the guitar, but had not yet seen a singer recording without 'reverb'. For tuning and perfection it is much better, even if it costs a lot more work. But of course, you have to work hard and at the end the result looks much better.
Why are you a guitarist?
Well, a flamenco guitarist, I mean, the thing that appealed to me was not so much the guitar itself but the flamenco guitar. Flamenco touched me very much, and do not know why, I have no idea. The first teacher I had, I had him for just three months, he died in a car accident. He went from Holland to Spain to the Guitar Festival and had a car accident and died, and that left a mark on me. He gave me the first cassette tape with Paco de Lucia and I loved it immediately. His death hit me a lot, I was 11 and it hit me a lot, it was a big drama for a child. And I also think ... like...I had a commitment to that man and I had to finish his work, maybe that has influenced me. And having that teacher is something that happened by chance. There was a guitar at home, nobody used to play it, it was something more ornamental, in my family there are no musicians. My father loved music and therefore I connected a lot with him through music. And lately I also think that flamenco has sought me, somehow I needed flamenco in my life.
And why do you like flamenco so much?
I don't know, I really don't know, I think it's because of its depth. There are arts that are lighter, not that they are less important, but they are more 'up' on the surface. However the 'soil' of flamenco attracts me. I like all the music that has that. That comes first, and then ... I don't know, I really don't know.
How did you find the opportunity of coming to Spain and getting connected to the Cristina Heeren Foundation?
I was already playing, I studied in the Conservatory of Rotterdam, in the Netherlands, I finished it and, of course, I didn't think of coming to Spain to stay, I came for half a year, I got a scholarship to study. Each year I used to come to Spain for about two months, in the summer time, for taking lessons with Gerardo Nunez, I also came to Amor de Dios (dancing school) for playing in the dance lessons, I went to Seville to study there with Isabel Bayón, at that time my girlfriend used to dance and I used to play in the class ... come to get steeped in flamenco and knowledge. But of course, the issue of accompaniment to singing is hard to learn. And in the Cristina Heeren Foundation I stayed for half a year to study, to go deeper in accompaniment to singing, wich I did not understand, I was not very fond of it, I used to listen to the current flamenco music, but not the ancient one, I used to listen to the ancient guitar players but not the ancient singers. And there I learned to appreciate the singing much more, I started to listen to the classical masters and I loved them. At the same time I started working with people who were at a higher level, in dancing and singing. And half a year later the foundation offered me a job so I stayed for one more year ... and it's been the same thing for 17 years, every year 'one more year'.
How would you describe your playing?
I do not know if I'll be able to describe it but...at least I pretend to be melodic, rhythmic and dynamic. I think that defines me. Very melodic.
One of your great teachers is Gerardo Nunez, what have you learned from him?
I came from a school, the Conservatory, with a fairly rigid technical and conceptual level. And I believed a lot in that rigidity, I thought it was the way to go. And when I got into the hands of Gerardo it was quite the opposite. Every time I asked him something he used to tell me "I don't know", "every person has his own hand" and it was very frustrating at first until I realized he was right and I suddenly felt very free. And Gerardo has many things to stand out for, but one of those things is the absolute freedom in the things he plays, in his playing, in his songwriting, he is freedom. And it is a great gift that I do not know if Gerardo is aware that he has given me but what I learned from him was releasing all the rigidity that I had about the technique or the music.
Paco de Lucia died 2 years ago, has he been a reference for you?
I come from a generation in wich, when I was starting to play a little more and to know more, Vicente Amigo came out. And at that time Vicente was the one who left a mark on me, rather than Paco. I've been touched by Paco since I'm in Spain. Now he is the guitarist that I listen the most and that I enjoy the most of all. In perhaps the most important time, when I was a teenager, I was touched by Vicente. Vicente at that time used to come to Holland to play very much, then I saw him live a lot and I used to keep my eyes on him at that time. Now, my eyes are on Paco, actually.
Is flamenco more valued outside of Spain?
It is a very difficult question. Here it's highly valued, rather than abroad because it is from here. But flamenco could be much more valued in Spain. I don't understand just why, the mere fact that there is only one Conservatoire from only 15 years ago to study flamenco is a nonsense. Flamenco could be more present at a school level, I think.
And, for a flamenco guitar player, is there more work outside of Spain?
Now that's true. I think flamenco artists have been saved from the crisis thanks to the foreign countries, thanks to the classes and courses and performances that we have abroad. And the work that comes up here in Spain, to be honest, the vast majority is in tablaos, and tablaos are full of foreigners. If we were all jazz players, we would all be unemployed. So flamenco has been saved from the crisis by the foreign countries. Also because we have traveled a lot and the crisis has not hit other countries in a so severe way. Of course flamenco has to thank a lot to the foreign countries, both in terms of documentation, with books written in the nineteenth century, as the Americans in Moron de la Frontera, Morón de la Frontera would not be half known if it were not by the American military base, I could even mention Bizet's 'Carmen', which has also made flamenco become more popular. In Europe the popularity also comes from the movie 'Vengo', by Tony Gatlif, in wich we can see Antonio Canales. It's not well known in Spain but it was a huge success abroad and has helped flamenco a lot. Here it is not known but in Holland and in any other countries it was a huge success.
A clear example of a foreigner who has helped flamenco a lot is the work of Cristina Heeren, right?.
Yes. A public recognition was made to Cristina Heeren at the Teatro Lope de Vega barely two weeks ago and on stage you could see Laura Vital, El Choro, Manuel de la Luz, Argentina, Manuel Lombo, Sonia Miranda, Jerome Segura, Virginia Gamez, Jesus Corbacho, Luis Aparicio ... an endless number of singers and professionals working nowadays. They all work in flamenco and have won some awards thanks to Cristina Heeren. All recognition is not enough for this woman.
What are your plans for the coming months?
Well, for now I'm still with the promotion of the album, I'm testing the possibility of making any representation, especially in Seville, I would like to make a presentation in Seville, I am also negotiating with a festival in Holland to make a presentation there and I'm trying to get people know my work. And at the same time I'm already planning even two more albums. One of a merger with a girl named Esther Wicks, who is a jazz singer, we are creating songs and recording for a new project with her singing in English, me playing the flamenco guitar, with some drums and some flamenco choirs and it's happening to be an interesting project. And for next year I would also like to record an album dedicated to the Holy Week in Seville with songs inspired by the marches. These are the projects that I have for now.
Do you like the Holy Week?
I like the Holy Week the same as I like the song 'Ojos verdes'. I love 'copla' but what always catches my attention in Spain is that the artistic quality is clouded by an excessive theatricality and emotionality. There is so much excitement in the 'copla' that I no longer see the 'copla', I see the emotion. And in the Holy Week I also want to know what's left of that music when you remove the theatrical, even the religious aspects, to see how it looks like, it is a discovery for me, I find it interesting.
I understand that there is something there that calls your attention.
I love to walk around Seville during the Holy Week, but I also recognize that it only lasts for two days and then so much playacting makes me choke, I also see it quite theatrical. I come with a foreign vision and I see that everything is a little exaggerated, although I adore it and admire it at the same time, it's a bit ambivalent.
Do you think that flamenco guitar today has less strength?
Well, it has a lot of strength yet. Nowadays, the recording technique requires another way of playing. Even in the live performances, the microphones have a huge influence, especially the 'reverb' which allows us to compose in a different way, it makes us compose in a different way, there's more 'sustain', the note lasts longer and makes you compose in a different way. Yes, the flamenco guitar is being played in a softer way but then you put a compressor and you seem to be playing much stronger.
Some people say that the flamenco guitar today is "effeminate"
I love it, and I feel identified with it, and I think it's a compliment. What's more, I always say it's a shame that there are not more women in flamenco playing the guitar. There are more of them, but they are not given any value and it's a shame because it is a very different way of song writing that is being lost. I would say that there is too much machismo on guitar too.
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