Flamenco Theory/Structure books (Full Version)

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cavez -> Flamenco Theory/Structure books (Feb. 16 2016 12:38:58)

Dear all,
I am a newby in here. I read a few posts and it's a great site. I am currently doing a PhD in ethnomusicology on one aspect of flamenco (more info to come in another post) and I was looking for one or more books that explain flamenco music theory and structure exhaustively. I was wondering what are the people's favourites here. English, Spanish, Italian and French work for me.
Thanks!



Sr. Martins -> RE: Flamenco Theory/Structure books (Feb. 16 2016 12:57:57)

quote:

I was wondering what are the people's favourites here.


People's favorite theory here is standard staff notation followed by TAB theory.

[sm=tongue.gif]



otirroz -> RE: Flamenco Theory/Structure books (Feb. 16 2016 13:16:16)

Hello cavez,

"Song of the Outcasts" written by Robin Totton has a 71-page chapter that analyzes the compas (rhythm), modal structure (scales) and gives some examples of the coplas (verses) associated with most of the flamenco palos (song forms). If I read your post correctly, this might be the sort of thing you are looking for.

P de V



drhildr -> RE: Flamenco Theory/Structure books (Feb. 16 2016 13:21:41)

I have this and it is a good introduction to the art form - you can get it on Amazon no probs.

quote:

Song of the Outcasts



Piwin -> RE: Flamenco Theory/Structure books (Feb. 16 2016 13:29:58)

A few years ago, I read parts of José Blas Vega's Dicionario enciclopedico del flamenco. It's a goldmine of information, including on some aspects of theory. The downside is that it is incredibly expensive! Perhaps a second-hand version of it is out there somewhere.

On the free-of-charge side, there is the website: flamencopolis.com which I find to be thorough.

To be honest, I'll also be interested in seeing what kind of replies you get, because most of the theory I've learned is from flamenco guitar methods or treatices that focus mainly on the practical applications and not so much on the underlying theory.



Leñador -> RE: Flamenco Theory/Structure books (Feb. 16 2016 14:53:34)

I don't think anyone has done an "exhaustive" book. There's so many exceptions to rules and indescribable "yo no se que" that would make it nearly impossible.



Paul Magnussen -> RE: Flamenco Theory/Structure books (Feb. 16 2016 15:30:00)

quote:

I was looking for one or more books that explain flamenco music theory and structure exhaustively.


Exhaustive would be a life’s work, not least because it would have to cover the guitar, dance, cante and jaleo in depth. How much do you know already? If you’re familiar with standard music theory that will be a big help; otherwise, the explanations in even the best books may be beyond you until you learn it.

Any good, through guitar tutor will give you the basics; but in my opinion, there aren’t that many. The ones I usually recommend are:

If you already play fingerstyle guitar:

The Keys to Flamenco Guitar by Dennis Koster (3 vols)
Flamenco Guitar Method by Gerhard Graf-Martínez (2 vols)

If you don't:
The Flamenco Guitar by Juan Grecos
Flamenco Guitar: Basic Techniques by Juan Serrano
El Arte Flamenco de la Guitarra by Juan Martín

For general background, Donn Pohren’s trilogy is essential:
The Art of Flamenco
Lives and Legends of Flamenco
A Way of Life

The classic in Spanish is Mairena & Molina’s Mundo y formas del cante flamenco; but unfortunately, Mairena didn’t understand music theory, so his explanations often leave something to be desired.



koenie17 -> RE: Flamenco Theory/Structure books (Feb. 16 2016 15:47:07)

Flamenco music theory by Lola Fernandez


ISBN 84-609-3514-0



Paul Magnussen -> RE: Flamenco Theory/Structure books (Feb. 16 2016 15:56:19)

quote:

I am currently doing a PhD in ethnomusicology


My first (and only) experience as an ethnomusicological topic was when I was sent a book by William Washabaugh to review for Classical Guitar magazine. I contacted Dr Washabaugh, and he seems a friendly and helpful bloke, besides knowing a very great deal about the subject; but as far as I can make out, the discipline as a whole seems to suffer from the syndrome described here by Noam Chomsky:



Please correct me if I’m wrong.

I afterwards posted the review I wrote on Amazon, if you have any interest:

Flamenco Music and National Identity in Spain



edguerin -> RE: Flamenco Theory/Structure books (Feb. 16 2016 16:52:03)

quote:

José Blas Vega's Dicionario enciclopedico del flamenco
is good.
Lola Fernandez doesn't give much background information imo

Here're some books that might prove helpful:
Manuel Ríos Ruiz "El Gran Libro Del Flamenco- Historia:Estilos:Intérpretes, 2 Vol. Madrid :Calambur, 2002, ISBN 84-88015-95-x

Philippe Donnier "El Duende tiene que ser Matematico", Cordoba:Virgilio Marquez,1985, ISBN 84-86090-06-7

Bernard Leblon "El cante Flamenco entre las musicas Gitanas y las tradiciones Andaluzas"
Madrid:Cinterco, 1991, ISBN 84-86365-34-1

Gerhard Steingress "Sociología del cante flamenco", Sevilla:Signatura Ediciones de Andalucia, 2005, ISBN 84-96210-38-3

German Herrero "De Jerez a Nueva Orleans - Analysis comparativo del flamenco y del jazz", Granada: Don Quijote, 1989, ISBN 84-85933-77-x


Oh, and you joined more than 5 years ago, so you're not really a "newbie", are you[;)]



Piwin -> RE: Flamenco Theory/Structure books (Feb. 16 2016 17:07:20)

edguerin,

do you feel the Dicionario enciclopedico del flamenco is worth the money?
I've been thinking about it for a while but the going rate for a new edition is around 400 EUR where I'm at.
I got to read parts of it for a few hours a while back and it did seem like it was all there but man that's steep as prices go! Could buy a "beach guitar" for that price
[:)]



edguerin -> RE: Flamenco Theory/Structure books (Feb. 16 2016 17:25:09)

quote:

Dicionario enciclopedico del flamenco is worth the money

€ 400.- ? No!

€ 100-150 : Yes



Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco Theory/Structure books (Feb. 16 2016 18:26:01)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cavez

Dear all,
I am a newby in here. I read a few posts and it's a great site. I am currently doing a PhD in ethnomusicology on one aspect of flamenco (more info to come in another post) and I was looking for one or more books that explain flamenco music theory and structure exhaustively. I was wondering what are the people's favourites here. English, Spanish, Italian and French work for me.
Thanks!


My personal thoughts on this topic are often controversial and I find myself in arguments online and with colleagues about this. The vast majority of what I read on the subject I am in disagreement with, and for that reason I admit I have not investigated too deeply the available literature. Most writers seem to me either don't really know western theory, or they don't really know flamenco yet cant' help but make comparisons. I am happy to give my thoughts if you want em or cant' find em in searches done here.

I admit I did come across ONE article written in Guitar Review 1976 by a CAROL WHITNEY on the subject. It was very concise and specific and jived 100% with my thoughts on the subject. It was a surprise to me as how old the article was and as I have never heard about the author before or since. The transcriptions made and analyzed in the article were 3 examples of Solea Alcala by Talega, and Joselero, which tells me the author was probably a MORONY (Donn Pohren's infamous American hippie flamenco ranch where they idol worshipped Diego del Gastor and Co. While lamenting the gone good ol days). But for me the language and descriptions were spot on with how I think about this stuff. Here is a copy:
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=848510815&searchurl=tn%3Dguitar%2520review

Can't find anything more done by the author unfortunately. The only other writer I tend to point to that makes short theory descriptions and puts details of playing into historical context is Alain Faucher in the prefaces of this transcription books. Though it is guitar centric, it is also spot on and detailed. Notable that with modern players he does away completely with the BS JAZZ FUSION junk popular cliche generalizations and gets at the true nitty gritty of flamenco guitar evolution with specifics.

Good luck on PH.D.



Piwin -> RE: Flamenco Theory/Structure books (Feb. 16 2016 20:16:31)

Thanks! those prices make way more sense to me!



drhildr -> RE: Flamenco Theory/Structure books (Feb. 17 2016 9:26:23)

As commented - a lifetimes work if you so choose and so many varying opinions - which of course is what makes it so fascinating!



Nito -> RE: Flamenco Theory/Structure books (Feb. 17 2016 10:09:37)

IMO, apart other references commented previously, Faustino Nuñez is one of the nowadays referents. If your Spanish comprehension is good:

Flamenco de la A a la Z (Spanish and English Book)

Flamencopolis (web)

Good Luck!



Piwin -> RE: Flamenco Theory/Structure books (Feb. 17 2016 17:20:07)

I forgot to mention Manuel Granados's theory books which are not too shabby and available for free (PDF) on his site (scroll down to the bottom of the page).
Cheers,



El Frijolito -> RE: Flamenco Theory/Structure books (Feb. 27 2016 19:57:40)

Anybody have opinions on the 'Flamenca Guitarra' books by Norberto Torres Cortes?

How about 'Comprende El Flamenco' by Faustino Núñez?

...and has anyone seen the three books by Enrique Vargas on "modal improvisation and melodic construction" in flamenco?



cavez -> RE: Flamenco Theory/Structure books (Feb. 28 2016 15:05:13)

Hi guys,
thanks so much! I should have a bit clearer. I was talking more about music theory books rather than history/sociology/anthropology. I am already coming to terms with Washabaugh's work, Steingress and others. The work of Granado (though more focused on guitar perhaps) is useful. I know about F.Nuñez and I forgot about flamencopolis ( I have his comprende el flamenco also). Really good site!
"modal improvisation and melodic construction" sounds interesting and also N. Torres. If anyone knows if they're available online (even a sample to see if it's what I need before I purchase, it would be appreciated). I will have a look at Flamenco music theory by Lola Fernandez.
I have been looking for flamenco de la a a la z but I could only find it on Amazon for +or- €1,500 needless to say it stayed there.
I couldn't find the Dicionario enciclopedico del flamenco for under €400 anywhere.
edguerin, you're right, I signed up ages ago but completely forgot... so I am technically a newby although, technically I'm not :)
Paul Magnussen: you're right on the academic world. I always think of a quote attributed to Woody Guthrie or Einstein (it depends on the source), which goes something like "every idiot can do something complicated, it takes a genius to reach simplicity" and I agree with it, though sometimes it's difficult to explain difficult concepts in simple terms. What I like about ethnomusicology is that, in a nutshell, looks at the reasons why we play and enjoy music as well as the way in which music and society shape each other. I just think they are topics worth investigating. Online communities like this are great examples. How and why we share flamenco as a common interest coming from completely different places and demographic. Anyway, I'll shut myself up otherwise I'll go on forever. :)
Thanks again!



Brendan -> RE: Flamenco Theory/Structure books (Feb. 28 2016 21:20:57)

Try this:

http://www.deflamenco.com/tienda/producto/libros-de-flamenco/desde-la-guitarra-armonia-del-flamenco-v1.html

You need to know your history, as the falsetas are just given with the player's name--you have to know who is who.

I know you said you aren't really looking for critical studies, but I'm going to plug this anyway:

http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/3250188.Michelle_Heffner_Hayes

I'm currently reading the anthology she has just published with two other people.



El Frijolito -> RE: Flamenco Theory/Structure books (Feb. 28 2016 21:29:55)

There's also this book, "Harmonic Bases of the Flamenco Guitar" by Jose Saban Ruiz, which might be of interest.



drhildr -> RE: Flamenco Theory/Structure books (Mar. 1 2016 12:34:12)

Blimey - looks like I am in the wrong business - should be writing books on Flamenco at these rates!



Piwin -> RE: Flamenco Theory/Structure books (Mar. 1 2016 12:48:50)

http://www.amazon.es/gp/offer-listing/8467025913/ref=dp_olp_used_mbc?ie=UTF8&condition=used

This is crazy...the prices range from 36 to 1200 euros for the exact same book...[:-]



Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco Theory/Structure books (Mar. 1 2016 17:18:17)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

http://www.amazon.es/gp/offer-listing/8467025913/ref=dp_olp_used_mbc?ie=UTF8&condition=used

This is crazy...the prices range from 36 to 1200 euros for the exact same book...[:-]



Amazon and Ebay have been like this for a while. Someone found my CD for sale in Japan for $400 or something crazy. Some one must have bought it cuz now there is only one for $105! LOL You have to put things in perspective.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_seeall_1?rh=k%3ARicardo+Marlow%2Ci%3Apopular&keywords=Ricardo+Marlow&ie=UTF8&qid=1456856117



aloysius -> RE: Flamenco Theory/Structure books (Mar. 1 2016 22:47:41)

I have the Norberto Torres book "Historia de la guitarra flamenca: el surco, el ritmo y el compás", not sure if that's the one Frijolito was referring to, it's very good I thought and very comprehensive. A great history that focuses on theoretical and formal aspects of the music and they way they have changed is:

"Historia Musical del Flamenco" by María Jesús Castro (Barcelona: Casa Beethoven Publicaciones, 2007)

A paper that discusses the way harmony was integrated into flamenco in the accompaniment of cante is:

"Modal harmony in Andalusian, Eastern European, and Turkish syncretic musics" by Peter Manuel, 1989, in Yearbook for Traditional Music. 21:70-94

If you are a postgrad student, you should be able to get your university to get an inter-library loan for any books you can't get a hold of.



timoteo -> RE: Flamenco Theory/Structure books (Mar. 2 2016 7:39:01)

quote:

If you are a postgrad student, you should be able to get your university to get an inter-library loan for any books you can't get a hold of.


You know, when I read the initial post, that was the first thing I thought. Everyone's talking about paying 400€ or whatever for a book, but the question should really be, Why aren't you using your library? There is no more important skill to learn as a graduate student. And if you're writing a PhD thesis, the most important resource for you is going to be *primary* sources, not other books. So if you're going to spend money, spend the money on a trip to Spain and dig through the libraries *there* looking for material. The bibliography of existing books can *guide* you where to find this material, but just rehashing stuff that's already been written about isn't much of a contribution to the body of knowledge about Flamenco. Then again, I'm one of those guys from the Physics department that Chomsky mentions ...

(BTW, that 400 euro book is freely available at dozens of libraries around the world, and you can get it on inter-library loan for free from almost any other library in the word. See http://www.worldcat.org/title/diccionario-enciclopedico-ilustrado-del-flamenco/oclc/463552643 )

Oh, and one peeve - you don't say where you're located, and you haven't entered that in your profile. That's pretty important when it comes to the responses you'll get for most questions ...



Brendan -> RE: Flamenco Theory/Structure books (Mar. 2 2016 10:33:56)

quote:

"Modal harmony in Andalusian, Eastern European, and Turkish syncretic musics" by Peter Manuel, 1989, in Yearbook for Traditional Music. 21:70-94


Turns out I'd already curated this one here:

https://sites.google.com/site/obscureflamencology/



Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco Theory/Structure books (Mar. 2 2016 11:32:08)

quote:

ORIGINAL: timoteo

quote:

If you are a postgrad student, you should be able to get your university to get an inter-library loan for any books you can't get a hold of.


You know, when I read the initial post, that was the first thing I thought. Everyone's talking about paying 400€ or whatever for a book, but the question should really be, Why aren't you using your library? There is no more important skill to learn as a graduate student. And if you're writing a PhD thesis, the most important resource for you is going to be *primary* sources, not other books. So if you're going to spend money, spend the money on a trip to Spain and dig through the libraries *there* looking for material. The bibliography of existing books can *guide* you where to find this material, but just rehashing stuff that's already been written about isn't much of a contribution to the body of knowledge about Flamenco. Then again, I'm one of those guys from the Physics department that Chomsky mentions ...

(BTW, that 400 euro book is freely available at dozens of libraries around the world, and you can get it on inter-library loan for free from almost any other library in the word. See http://www.worldcat.org/title/diccionario-enciclopedico-ilustrado-del-flamenco/oclc/463552643 )

Oh, and one peeve - you don't say where you're located, and you haven't entered that in your profile. That's pretty important when it comes to the responses you'll get for most questions ...


Not sure what it's like today but when I was in school flamenco was super fringe subject. The only thing in any library in USA was Donn Pohren's stuff, no joke. Inter library loans just seem like far fetched to me regarding a subject as specific as "flamenco music theory".
[:D]

I think the original poster needs to check out ROMERITO's thesis if he can find it out there. That would be Kevin Romero.



El Frijolito -> RE: Flamenco Theory/Structure books (Mar. 2 2016 15:48:13)

quote:

Not sure what it's like today but when I was in school flamenco was super fringe subject.


I suspect the situation is a bit different now, it's probably considered a "cool" topic to inflate with critical theory and other varieties of postmodern flatulence.[:'(]

Inter-library loans can be tremendous for specialized subjects although I've not tried them vis. flamenco.



El Frijolito -> RE: Flamenco Theory/Structure books (Mar. 2 2016 15:56:59)

quote:

Everyone's talking about paying 400€ or whatever for a book, but the question should really be, Why aren't you using your library?


One big problem with university libraries is that some of them have gotten into "pay to play" schemes where they charge exorbitant amounts for borrowing and even sometimes for access. You can imagine how quoting borrowing fees in the hundreds of dollars (and up!) goes over with in-state residents and alumni of public universities in the U.S., not to mention alumni of private universities.[:@]

quote:

just rehashing stuff that's already been written about isn't much of a contribution to the body of knowledge about Flamenco.


In any case there's a distinction to be made between academicized studies (many of which are essentially rehashes of stuff that's already been written, and frequently of questionable practical value) and (usually much cheaper) applied guidebooks - university libraries will focus on the former, and tend not to acknowledge the existence of the latter.[:-]



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