Is Flamenco still Flamenco?

Is Flamenco still Flamenco? (Full Version)

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brad -> Is Flamenco still Flamenco? (Dec. 27 2015 21:27:21)
Hi guys, I have a thought that has been going around in my head after listening some modern flamenco and like to share it with you. People, things, ideas, everything must change in order to improve, evolve, etc Now applying that to flamenco music. I think that flamenco has won a lot with its changes in the last 10-20 years with the adding of new chords, harmonies and influences from jazz and others sources, but I think the price that has paid for all that, is that nowadays Flamenco has lost its character, its power and its particularity, to me now is very difficult to distinguish one palo from other, they all sound almost the same If you listen a bulerias from 40 years ago and then a modern bulerias, musically and technically the improvement is amazing but the soul the essence it's not the same, something is missing. There should be a balance in all these fields. Like Paco said once in an interview from the 70's: La fuerza de la guitarra flamenca es su caracter, sin él ya no es nada. The power of flamenco guitar is its character, without it would be nothing

tri7/5 -> [Deleted] (Dec. 27 2015 22:39:24)
Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 27 2015 22:39:53

El Kiko -> RE: Is Flamenco still Flamenco? (Dec. 27 2015 22:54:03)
quote: Is Flamenco still Flamenco? yes

Dudnote -> RE: Is Flamenco still Flamenco? (Dec. 28 2015 1:02:03)
quote: Is Flamenco still Flamenco? It is if it is flamenco. This is perhaps an extreme example, but for me this ceases to be flamenco from the moment the singer stops singing Estrella Morente's tangos and the pianists starts jazz noodling.

Fisch -> RE: Is Flamenco still Flamenco? (Dec. 28 2015 14:52:51)
Awesome example Dudnote. I love heaps of the modern Flamenco because after listening to heaps of traditional stuff my ears just hurt... I really enjoy hearing what new artists are bringing out, new combinations & the evolution. That's what Flamenco is in my mind, an evolution... That being said I rarely like the jazz cross over mix. New letras, new falsetas and crazy dance moves are great.... but jamming in some weird jazz stuff loses the beat.... The accents really pull the palo along, lose them and it's not flamenco anymore.

Ricardo -> RE: Is Flamenco still Flamenco? (Dec. 28 2015 16:21:02)
quote: I think that flamenco has won a lot with its changes in the last 10-20 years with the adding of new chords, harmonies and influences from jazz and others sources, Can you give even ANY specific examples? Or it is your general perception? Because I have studied both old and new flamenco, and even some jazz, and only know a few specific examples of "new chords" or "jazz influences" on the flamenco players. A player I consider quite modern is Manolo Sanlucar....not a single jazz thing in there yet it is NOT anything you can hear in the old tradition. I would say the same deal for Diego del MORAO, Dani de moron etc....Even when Paco made fusions with McLaughlin, he used flamenco specific voicings for chords and harmonic vamps... What I see is new is the sophistication in the rhythmic expression of compas...something that happened more or less internally within the genre of guitar and dance music over the decades, and has finally stabilized somewhat. The level of sophistication often goes over the heads of students and aficionados, not able to wrap their ears around the familiar markers of old, and are left crying "jazz again!" With every new offering.

tri7/5 -> RE: Is Flamenco still Flamenco? (Dec. 28 2015 16:25:48)
Agree with Ricardo. Everyone mentions flamenco sounding too jazzy now but I never hear any 2-5-1 progressions or anything thats really in a jazz tradition. Has flamenco gotten smoother, incorporated some fusion like elements? Yeah some modern guys are going that direction but not all.

El Kiko -> RE: Is Flamenco still Flamenco? (Dec. 28 2015 20:26:05)
Well ,it doesn't have to be 2/5/1 to be jazz , except the good old standards ...most of which are considered old tunes any way ...modal jazz .. all kinds exist ... many flamenco palos have 5 / 1 in it any way ... almost there ... I dont think that route will get you anywhere in this question ... If you really want to know if flamenco is still flamenco you will have to define what flamenco is , in order to see if modern additives have changed it sufficiently to be not flamenco ... A starting point may be the typical answer as to what flamenco is , it could be be the standard ... ............ A style of Spanish music, played especially on the guitar and accompanied by singing and dancing. a style of spirited, rhythmical dance performance an artform and genre of music and dance native to the southern Spanish regions of Andalusia, Extremadura and Murcia. It includes cante, toque. .... If you take this , and this alone as the definition , then you will find a lot of things fall out side of flamenco ...perhaps even many of Pacos works themselves .. However, flamenco itself must be an art-form if anything , and therefore all encompassing . So , like any artform it can only be defined in that one day or moment in time , as it evolves so will the rules that govern it, and so evolve as time passes ... Because its constantly being re-invented by people .. who themselves are ever changing and non-static . It would have to involve creative self expression as one of its fundamental pillars, It cannot , as art, remain static ..one of the more recent changes it is now encountering is that what is happening right here ..right now , on this site .. foroflamenco itself is evidence of this genre becoming a cross cultural artform . .. so many cultures in the world , and so many add a small bit in from time to time ... if you went far enough back in time ..some long gone singers would say what there is today is not flamenco ... in fact I think it strange that Brad ended his post with the phrase ''La fuerza de la guitarra flamenca es su caracter, sin él ya no es nada. '' While I get it .. I also consider the past when flamenco was the voice , the song , its story ,, and the accopanyment ...tapping a cane on the ground .. clapping , knuckles on a table ..... no guitar ....its evolved already

BarkellWH -> RE: Is Flamenco still Flamenco? (Dec. 29 2015 13:07:09)
quote: in fact I think it strange that Brad ended his post with the phrase ''La fuerza de la guitarra flamenca es su caracter, sin él ya no es nada. '' While I get it .. I also consider the past when flamenco was the voice , the song , its story ,, and the accopanyment ...tapping a cane on the ground .. clapping , knuckles on a table ..... no guitar ....its evolved already You nailed the answer to his question with your final lines, quoted above. On target! Bill

chester -> RE: Is Flamenco still Flamenco? (Dec. 30 2015 5:22:58)
quote: Can you give even ANY specific examples? Or it is your general perception? Because I have studied both old and new flamenco, and even some jazz, and only know a few specific examples of "new chords" or "jazz influences" on the flamenco players. A player I consider quite modern is Manolo Sanlucar....not a single jazz thing in there yet it is NOT anything you can hear in the old tradition. I would say the same deal for Diego del MORAO, Dani de moron etc....Even when Paco made fusions with McLaughlin, he used flamenco specific voicings for chords and harmonic vamps... Not specific examples but I can think of a couple of concepts -- longer falsetas (like a 'solo'), use of the melodic minor scale, progressions that stay away from the tonic, 'borrowed' chords (from other scales). While not necessarily invented by jazz players, they definitely characterize the genre and have been used (to a certain extent - respectively) by the more modern players you mentioned. I'm not super familiar with really 'old' flamenco but that's not really a sound that's on the more trad stuff that I know such as La Familia de los Zambos.

Dudnote -> RE: Is Flamenco still Flamenco? (Dec. 30 2015 11:10:22)
Some of this has been discussed before here http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=269640&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1 In that thread Ricardo listed 6 modern innovations quote: 1. synchopation 2. dynamics and phrasing. 3. from brazil styles, certain voicings of ii-V-I moves coupled with 1 and 2 above. 4. Modulation away from and back to tonic using secondary dominants. 5. From jazz minor third modulations and melodic minor mode usage. 6. also from Jazz the occasional chart/improvisational structure concept in place of falsetas. It would be great to have some examples of 3,4,5 & 6, cause without examples these are just abstract concepts with little practical value (IMO). Seems no one mentioned salsa so far, but there are several examples of salsa stuff being mixed into flamenco. AFAIK Camaron was the first to do that.

Ricardo -> RE: Is Flamenco still Flamenco? (Dec. 30 2015 22:00:22)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dudnote Some of this has been discussed before here http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=269640&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1 In that thread Ricardo listed 6 modern innovations quote: 1. synchopation 2. dynamics and phrasing. 3. from brazil styles, certain voicings of ii-V-I moves coupled with 1 and 2 above. 4. Modulation away from and back to tonic using secondary dominants. 5. From jazz minor third modulations and melodic minor mode usage. 6. also from Jazz the occasional chart/improvisational structure concept in place of falsetas. It would be great to have some examples of 3,4,5 & 6, cause without examples these are just abstract concepts with little practical value (IMO). Seems no one mentioned salsa so far, but there are several examples of salsa stuff being mixed into flamenco. AFAIK Camaron was the first to do that. 3. Gm11-C7b5/Gb-F....this type of move became super common at some point. In place of the "cambio" of por medio key that is, but found and almost any palo. I show a version in the Paco tutorial buleria I did last year of the falseta from "punta del faro". 4. Soniquete from Zyrab, the opening falseta por buleria...goes from C# Phrygian to E major (ii-V-I), then to C major (ii-V-I), then E Phrygian (vii-II7-I), Am (N2-i), E Phrygian (II+-I), back to C# Phrygian (II-I)... 5. Also from Zyrab the buleria compadres, the last falseta before the fandango exit, The same line line in A Phrygian is transposed up to C Phrygian, then back to A phrygian. This brief but effective idea caught on and there might be tons of examples...off hand Tomatito Chicuelo, Vicente, Gerardo etc all used it. 6. MOst Rumbas since Entre dos Aguas pretty much...in flamenco 12 PALOS Paco used this in Plaza Alta ending, Chiquito, Nuñez used for Gallo Azul ending, Solea por buleria in Eb tuning the begining. Ricardo

Dudnote -> RE: Is Flamenco still Flamenco? (Dec. 30 2015 22:32:49)
Thanks Ricardo What is an N2 chord? If I google it the only hits I get are in books.

DavidRG -> RE: Is Flamenco still Flamenco? (Dec. 31 2015 4:09:39)
Hello, guys. I can't talk about chords and modes, but I can talk about feelings. In my opinion, there are many people doing "traditional flamenco", high quality music, and that will never be lost. But there are also many flamenco artists doing what I call "soft flamenco", in wich everything is smooth...very smooth. Instead of playing a strong "rasgueo", for example, they play the strings softly with their thumb, and instead of a good "arpegio" they pluck the strings very softly. This is an example: I don't enjoy this kind of flamenco. But there are also some modern people with modern ideas that I do enjoy. Not all "mldernflamenco" is "soft flamenco" ;)

tele -> RE: Is Flamenco still Flamenco? (Dec. 31 2015 14:12:08)
I think maybe there's less so called "flamenco puro" but when you hear it you know it[:)] It's in my perception almost impossible to bring to extinction.

Ricardo -> RE: Is Flamenco still Flamenco? (Dec. 31 2015 17:40:26)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dudnote Thanks Ricardo What is an N2 chord? If I google it the only hits I get are in books. Neapolitan II chord...used by Italian classical composers, basically the tritone sub for the dominant to tonic resolution in Minor keys. Normally in Am, you have E7-Am...the N2 takes the place of the V7 so you would have Bb-Am instead. That is what Paco was doing with his falseta. It can also be used as a way to evoke the natural Phrygian mode (A,Bb,C,D,E,F,G), a rather unresolved sound in flamenco. quote: But there are also many flamenco artists doing what I call "soft flamenco", in wich everything is smooth...very smooth. Yes, this falls directly under what I was describing as the DYNAMICS of the music that have changed. Smooth or soft or suave playing allows for hard driving rasgueados to become extremely intense, relatively speaking. While it was a general trend it is very noticeable with Vicente Amigo and later with other players for cante. I remember Josele playing for Cigala was all the rage at one time and he was playing so darn soft deliberately...too much drama for me too. It transferred into the "pop" flamenco world naturally. It reminds much of bossa nova with the quiet whispering sexy female voice. For me it only works in limited situations where the hard rasgueados are used effectively with it. An example I actual did like was Vicente Solea with Jose Merce. Ricardo

xirdneH_imiJ -> RE: Is Flamenco still Flamenco? (Jan. 1 2016 15:33:57)
True, the dynamics of flamenco has changed a lot, but also the more technical playing requires a somewhat softer overall approach to improve accuracy. A year or two ago I met a pro from Sevilla, he gave a small concert here, I was sitting about two meters away from him and could barely hear him playing. The next day he played the same stuff at a big venue, and behind the microphone the same thing sounded big and powerful. It was a bit shocking. The truth must be somewhere in the middle, I sure prefer a much harder approach myself being a dance accompanist mainly. But watching Paco's later videos he seemed to have adopted a softer approach himself to conserve energy and maximize right hand economy. Diego del Morao is one to go softer too, but the likes of Antonio Rey and Jesús Guerrero are definitely harder players.

rojarosguitar -> RE: Is Flamenco still Flamenco? (Jan. 1 2016 18:38:13)
Flamenco is still flamenco as much as you are the same person you were when you was 3 years old. A lot of continuity and even more change ... Change is unavoidable. And if the emtional expression changed, than thats because also the people have changed and their emotions and expressions, too. You cannot possibly conserve anything without killing it.

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