RE: What happens when a flamenco guitarist plays classical stuff?! (Full Version)

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estebanana -> RE: What happens when a flamenco guitarist plays classical stuff?! (Oct. 8 2015 13:16:44)

Persian culture is really interesting to me, sans the government.

I have a good old friend who is Persian and she is hilarious. She's a libertine, see lives in San Francisco in her late 40's and she dates a new young guy every couple of months. Like guys who are 22.

For a while she was dating these twins who were about 23 or 24 and they were both firemen. She as managing both at the same time! I think she is backlashing and taking advantage of not living in Iran. She visits every few years but never goes back to live.
She's from Teheran, aristocratic daughter of general in the Shah's army.

Even more then her proclivity for young dudes he has a hunger for good food we are old eating buddies. We used to go the best burger secret places, and she loves hams.

Persian women can be really attractive of course my friend recommends having them waxed and polished before taking them out. A looking tie ago I dated a Persian woman who is a famous translator of texts in Farsi. I was lucky o get away from her with my man stuff intact, she was CRAY CRAY. She was classically beautiful crescent eyebrows. That kind of stuff can make a man do really unwise things if you become attracted to powerful crazy beautiful woman.
But then I never stopped doing crazy unwise stuff for beautiful women



Leñador -> RE: What happens when a flamenco guitarist plays classical stuff?! (Oct. 8 2015 14:36:42)

Saying Pepe plays flamenco is a bit of an exaggeration.....

I dated a Persian girl, one of the hottest girls I've ever dated but she did need to keep up daily on personal grooming or it could get out of control lol



Ruphus -> RE: What happens when a flamenco guitarist plays classical stuff?! (Oct. 8 2015 14:41:54)

I havn´t figured out yet whether it´s me having a hidden faible for crazy women or whether it´s been them chosing me.

But with some certainty I am not interested in common women of that cultural sphere.
Persian culture used to be most outstanding in its hightime and compared to intellectual state in the rest of the world. It appears as if it is hardly known how intelligent and progressive it actually used to be.

However, that must have ceased around some 2000 years ago.
Since then it has completely stagnated, and seen no approach towards pragmatism and philosophical excursion into discovering objectivity.

The worst of it all being the fact there is not only no awareness about the backwardness, but no interest in exploration. The common level of sophistication being so low that the typical head thinks to know it all about a subject, after not even having covered basics yet.

Today Persian culture seems not much more than another subvariety of Arab culture. There really is no principle difference.

I´d thus rather spare me the vastly predictable headaches with a lady incapable of logical thinking and of discussion with sense. Let alone the common aiming at material goals that may precede and follow the relationship.

To me empathetical skills and decency are very important. And nothing beats Occident´s beauties anyway. At best not playing with their beauty at all and being the chap-type you could be stealing horses with (as we say in German).

Girls who, when you say something like: "We´ll never be having money, though" spontaneously replying in kinds of: "I can sew. I´ll buy cloth and make our clothings myself".
Ain´t that some heartwarming cuteness? :O)

No lust after wannabe princesses for me.

Ruphus



mark indigo -> RE: What happens when a flamenco guitarist plays classical stuff?! (Oct. 8 2015 15:12:07)

quote:

What happens when a flamenco guitarist plays classical stuff?!


off topic

yawn



mark indigo -> RE: What happens when a flamenco guitarist plays classical stuff?! (Oct. 8 2015 15:14:48)

quote:

I am currently editing a batch of photographies, containing shots of one truly beautiful and in the same time extremely sympathetical Persian girl. Too bad that chicks of that realm are very picky about their pictures (always afraid that shots could be misused to harm their pride) otherwise I´d show pics to you for eye candy.


what are you, a porn pimp?[:D]



Ruphus -> RE: What happens when a flamenco guitarist plays classical stuff?! (Oct. 8 2015 16:09:29)

I know you were joking, yet for the record:
Porn I have no experience with. And the artistic nude pics made have never been shown to anyone, because of the photographed ladies having been private motifs and no professional models.

Further, the pics I would had liked to show Stephen were shot in public and are portraits. Just a beautiful laughing face.
Aesthetics similar to when looking at well lit images of fine crafted flamenco guitars.

Ruphus



Ricardo -> RE: What happens when a flamenco guitarist plays classical stuff?! (Oct. 8 2015 16:31:20)

So everyone I listened to playing classical guitar in this thread and in general is either freakin BORING..or they simply make me squirm in my chair at how freakin awkward the guitar sounds to play. Por favor...

The classical players that I can finally sit back and relax listening to are JOHN WILLIAMS, and that's it really. The only guy playing with any kind of expression without the technique of playing interfering with the sound. Everybody else strugging to get from one chord to another. Ana Vidovic is ok too (I know she was mentioned at one point) but I am sure her better examples were sped up (based on seeing her live several times, and videos) and she gets a weird scratchy tone on the basses with i-m. Honorable mention to Jose Maria Gallardo del Rey, who appears limited to Spanish classics and originals. Paco de Lucia is no comparison to anything here. Pepe Romero? Por favor I couldn't get past his fuera compas and clumsy D chord fingering of the intro to Concierto.

NEXT!!!

Ok back to flamenco. By the way, I saw Nuñez playing Bach and Concierto and a thing here or there, and I think Sanlucar does some classical stuff for exercises...THAT is something to hear but sad no published examples.

Ricardo



Grisha -> RE: What happens when a flamenco guitarist plays classical stuff?! (Oct. 8 2015 16:45:22)

quote:

ORIGINAL: encanto

JEJEJEJEJE gOOd evening everyone, bananas et al.


[:D] That Spanish laughter is so cool and original - sounds like ZheZheZhe to the rest of the world.



Ricardo -> RE: What happens when a flamenco guitarist plays classical stuff?! (Oct. 8 2015 16:47:25)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grisha

quote:

ORIGINAL: encanto

JEJEJEJEJE gOOd evening everyone, bananas et al.


[:D] That Spanish laughter is so cool and original - sounds like ZheZheZhe to the rest of the world.



It's supposed to be jijijiji...or jajajajaja...in English hehehehe or hahahahah



Grisha -> RE: What happens when a flamenco guitarist plays classical stuff?! (Oct. 8 2015 16:54:24)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

It's supposed to be jijijiji...or jajajajaja...in English hehehehe or hahahahah


That is even cuter! If, like me, you read "j" as in "jello".

On a serious note... This thread should be in the Off Topic section. It discusses performance of CLASSICAL music. Where is flamenco police when we need it?



Blondie#2 -> RE: What happens when a flamenco guitarist plays classical stuff?! (Oct. 8 2015 17:34:04)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leñador
Saying Pepe plays flamenco is a bit of an exaggeration.....


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Pepe Romero? Por favor I couldn't get past his fuera compas


[:D]
Funnily enough this subject came up on Delcamp recently, I expressed similar reservations about Pepe's flamenco and nearly got my head bitten off.

.. didn't I, Davrom? [:D]



Leñador -> RE: What happens when a flamenco guitarist plays classical stuff?! (Oct. 8 2015 17:41:04)

quote:

Funnily enough this subject came up on Delcamp recently, I expressed similar reservations about Pepe's flamenco and nearly got my head bitten off.

Really??? Maybe I'll join and get your back! [:D]
I saw him play a bulerias, it was very awkward, lacked any semblance of groove or aire, and worse, spots not in compas. It was obvious that he learned it like a piece of music and didn't understand the underlying groove.



Ruphus -> RE: What happens when a flamenco guitarist plays classical stuff?! (Oct. 8 2015 20:44:10)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

So everyone I listened to playing classical guitar in this thread and in general is either freakin BORING..or they simply make me squirm in my chair at how freakin awkward the guitar sounds to play. Por favor...

The classical players that I can finally sit back and relax listening to are JOHN WILLIAMS, and that's it really.


An interesting proof for how theoretical bliss mustn´t be covering all of essentials.

Isn´t it weird how near 100% of the guitar community think it to be diametrically opposed to your perception? They think Williams to be technically perfect but musically boring.

When compared to someone like Bream (who clearly has his technical limits which do at times force his articulation / phrasing) Williams always loses before the listener´s ears.

Same about Pepe´s CdA popularity (while Paco´s is hardly known; -and actually he was booed in one performance whichs video used to be on YT, when he was completely lost with the notes). In this case I don´t think public to have been too dumb to judge at all. For, Pepe´s performance of that piece is the most singing of them all.

It´s no all in the metronome, Ricardo.

Ruphus



Bulerias2005 -> RE: What happens when a flamenco guitarist plays classical stuff?! (Oct. 8 2015 21:17:54)

Just chiming in -- I don't think sweeping generalizations make a lot of sense here. There many flamenco guitarists who use a wide range of dynamics and a ton who don't, just like there are many classical guitarists who sit in a position that supposedly allows for greater dynamic variation and then play with the same, sweet, flat tone uniformly... and then there are guitarists like Julian Bream who employ a ton of dynamics.

John Williams' playing is very boring to me, for the most part... I recently listened again to his Barrios and it was much more dynamically flat than I recalled.



BarkellWH -> RE: What happens when a flamenco guitarist plays classical stuff?! (Oct. 8 2015 21:28:11)

quote:

and it's hard for me to imagine Paco and his band were ever booked to do anything less than 2000


Imagine it. I have seen Paco and his group play at Lisner Auditorium in Washington, DC twice. Lisner seats 1,490. He also has performed at the Mesa Arts Center in Mesa Arizona, a venue that seats 1,600.

Bill



BarkellWH -> RE: What happens when a flamenco guitarist plays classical stuff?! (Oct. 8 2015 21:33:21)

quote:

These days the Austin Classical Guitar Society puts on concerts by Tomatito and Niño de Pura, as well as Pepe Romero (who has played both classical and flamenco all his life),


I have always enjoyed the Romeros. Had the good fortune to see Pepe Romero perform at the Kennedy Center four years ago. I have to agree with those who have questioned his flamenco credentials, though. And many years ago I saw the "Romeros," led by the patriarch Celedonio, perform. A great guitar family.

Bill



BarkellWH -> RE: What happens when a flamenco guitarist plays classical stuff?! (Oct. 8 2015 21:50:35)

quote:

Persian culture is really interesting to me, sans the government.


More than just the current theocracy that rules Iran, the bedrock elements of Persian culture by far pre-date the imposition of Islam in the seventh century A.D. Persia was a powerful cultural and military force during the fifth century B.C., and key elements of that culture survive today, in spite of religion's attempts to stifle it with taboos and proscribed activities. The young people in Iran today are far more open to the world than the religious zealots, and the religion itself, that have kept Iran back, and I have hope that eventually they will prevail over the long term.

And I fully agree that Persian women, along with Colombian and Brazilian women, are among the most beautiful in the world.

Bill



Richard Jernigan -> RE: What happens when a flamenco guitarist plays classical stuff?! (Oct. 8 2015 22:09:29)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leñador

quote:

Funnily enough this subject came up on Delcamp recently, I expressed similar reservations about Pepe's flamenco and nearly got my head bitten off.

Really??? Maybe I'll join and get your back! [:D]
I saw him play a bulerias, it was very awkward, lacked any semblance of groove or aire, and worse, spots not in compas. It was obvious that he learned it like a piece of music and didn't understand the underlying groove.


Hyping Pepe's appearance in Austin last year, the local classical radio station aired him playing Sabicas's bulerias "Aires de Triana"--not very well. The announcer came on afterward and enthused at some length. I was astonished.

When Pepe, Celin and Angel were younger, in their twenties, they played a fair amount of flamenco--copped off records--pretty well. I think they don't play flamenco very much any more, and their chops have suffered.

In his concert Pepe stuck mainly to the classical warhorses. His sound was more toward the flamenco end of things than any other classical player here recently. A firm right hand, plenty of apoyando.

I enjoyed the show. He's a likable guy, and his playing has rhythmic and dynamic interest.

RNJ



Leñador -> RE: What happens when a flamenco guitarist plays classical stuff?! (Oct. 8 2015 23:05:55)

quote:

Hyping Pepe's appearance in Austin last year, the local classical radio station aired him playing Sabicas's bulerias "Aires de Triana"--not very well. The announcer came on afterward and enthused at some length. I was astonished.


That's the one I heard! Yeah, terrible. Not to knock him as a guitarist though, I'm not a huge classical fan but I appreciate it and he's definitely got some good interpretations. More personality in his playing which I appreciate.



Sr. Martins -> RE: What happens when a flamenco guitarist plays classical stuff?! (Oct. 8 2015 23:07:40)

I am sorry about this little off topic but this reminded me of that "pompous" classical guy playing a Paco song at a church or something. Can anyone post the link to that? It was very funny but I can't remember the title...



jshelton5040 -> RE: What happens when a flamenco guitarist plays classical stuff?! (Oct. 8 2015 23:11:07)

I've stayed out of this discussion since I am extremely biased so at the risk of offending everyone involved let me say that Pepe Romero's flamenco sucks. The only Romero who has what it takes is Angel, that guy could play guitar.

I've sat in my own dining room many times and heard a real master play guitar for hours with about 10 people listening several times. It is a humiliating experience for any guitar player.

When players reach that level they're not like normal people...whatever they have is something I will never have or understand.

The best classical players and flamenco players are a different breed than the rest of us. John Williams excluded...he's a robot.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: What happens when a flamenco guitarist plays classical stuff?! (Oct. 9 2015 0:23:55)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jshelton5040
The best classical players and flamenco players are a different breed than the rest of us.


In my youth I could play all the stuff Mario Escudero had recorded by the early 1960s. One of the things it did was to enable me to hear what Sabicas was actually doing. I said, "That guy is not wired up like you and me."

Then Escudero put out some more difficult stuff, I got married and started traveling a lot for work.

quote:


John Williams excluded...he's a robot.


That explains a lot.

RNJ



DavRom -> RE: What happens when a flamenco guitarist plays classical stuff?! (Oct. 9 2015 0:55:22)

quote:

I have seen Paco and his group play at Lisner Auditorium in Washington, DC twice. Lisner seats 1,490. He also has performed at the Mesa Arts Center in Mesa Arizona, a venue that seats 1,600.


well there it is

but i still say a flamenco guitar is not gonna cut thru a band without an amplifier

and Richard Jernigan has not responded whether Yamashita played solo or with a band in that 1200-seat auditorium. i'll bet it was solo



BarkellWH -> RE: What happens when a flamenco guitarist plays classical stuff?! (Oct. 9 2015 1:06:16)

quote:

but i still say a flamenco guitar is not gonna cut thru a band without an amplifier


I realize I am exhibiting a personal prejudice here, but I hate to call members of a flamenco group such as Paco's and others a "band." I find it really grating to think of Paco's group as a "band." Too "Old School," I guess, but there you have it.

Bill



Paul Magnussen -> RE: What happens when a flamenco guitarist plays classical stuff?! (Oct. 9 2015 1:06:57)

quote:

The best classical players and flamenco players are a different breed than the rest of us. John Williams excluded...he's a robot.


That used to be a fairly common opinion, certainly, including mine in the early days. But sometime around 1980, i.e. the time of Echoes of Spain, he improved out of all recognition.

Listen to From a Bird, his latest, which is mostly his own compositions. No trace of the robot there: I really love some of the pieces, particularly Notes in the Margin.



Grisha -> RE: What happens when a flamenco guitarist plays classical stuff?! (Oct. 9 2015 1:08:32)

Yamashita's band is also unamplified.



DavRom -> RE: What happens when a flamenco guitarist plays classical stuff?! (Oct. 9 2015 1:39:52)

quote:

Yamashita's band is also unamplified


what instruments besides guitar?



estebanana -> RE: What happens when a flamenco guitarist plays classical stuff?! (Oct. 9 2015 1:49:19)

quote:

Saying Pepe plays flamenco is a bit of an exaggeration.....


His compas is not solid.



estebanana -> RE: What happens when a flamenco guitarist plays classical stuff?! (Oct. 9 2015 1:55:27)

quote:

But with some certainty I am not interested in common women of that cultural sphere.
Persian culture used to be most outstanding in its hightime and compared to intellectual state in the rest of the world. It appears as if it is hardly known how intelligent and progressive it actually used to be.


Yes is is sad that a great deal of the secular intellectuals had to leave after the revolution. In photos of Iran from the 1960's you can see students mixing it and wearing mini skirts. Times were more liberal.

Persian culture is 3000 years old and in Farsi there are to words for flatulence. Gooz and Chos. Gooz is the noisy one that sounds like a little explosion and Chos is the silent one that sneaks up on you. You have to love a culture that has two words for farts.



Grisha -> RE: What happens when a flamenco guitarist plays classical stuff?! (Oct. 9 2015 2:05:05)

Yamashita's band consists of his children playing guitar. But this time he is solo.



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