Which Paco influenced the other more? (Full Version)

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mark74 -> Which Paco influenced the other more? (Sep. 3 2015 19:12:19)

Looking at videos from the early 70's it seems like both Cepero and PdL are influencing each other a lot. I've wondered whether Cepero wasn't a bigger influence on PdL and therefore a bigger innovator in flamenco than he gets credit for.



mark indigo -> RE: Which Paco influenced the other more? (Sep. 4 2015 9:16:34)

yeah that's right, PDL stole it all from Cepero.... or was it Niño Miguel? ....he was friends with Paco del Gastor back then, maybe he stole it from him....?

btw I only recently discovered Paco del Gastor actually recorded Guajíras de Lucía on an LP called "La guitarra gitana y pura de Paco del Gastor" released in 1978

and from what I remember of the Rito Y Geografía Camarón episode both Camarón and Cepero acknowledge the influence and genius of Paco



mark74 -> RE: Which Paco influenced the other more? (Sep. 5 2015 18:04:15)

I wasn't saying he "stole" anything from Cepero, I was just saying Cepero was possibly a big influence at that point in his development. However, it may have been the other way around and I was wondering if any of the hardcore flamencos here have any opinions on it.



Ricardo -> RE: Which Paco influenced the other more? (Sep. 5 2015 23:25:46)

Let's put it this way...there were things that PDL did note for note from cepero... phrases of melody and rasgueados, ideas of accompaniment etc....and even took a phrase and transposed it cleverly in one case I know of....Cepero, as great as he was, basically got the gist or idea of what PDL was doing and "faked" his own versions of the ideas.

If you check out PDL's "Recital" album from 1971...that's cepero playing along with PDL, so for sure he had note for note phrases too. As per Camaron/Cepero, in Rito it is clear Cepero is the PREFERED tocar. Maybe it's because of seniority, or even racially motivated, who knows, but it is obvious. I wouldn't say "ability" so much, as PDL was already accompanying other singers very orthodox and well like Cepero. Perhaps Cepero was a notch better or made singers more comfortable because of his track record and experience. What Camaron said was in regards to "Canastera", he says he did not like PDL version so much and has a much better version on bootleg with Cepero. I feel it was a deliberate thing there. Maybe PDL was getting more jaleos for his picado than Camaron for his quejio? Cepero graciously steps in at that moment to make it clear that THEY respected PDL as a maestro. Politics IMO.

Ricardo



mark indigo -> [Deleted] (Sep. 6 2015 9:39:06)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Sep. 6 2015 9:40:16



tele -> RE: Which Paco influenced the other more? (Sep. 6 2015 13:56:27)

I'm sure both influenced eachother and in flamenco it's completely ok to copy other guitarists' styles, right?

I'm curious to know who came up with playing this chord as arpeggio in the end of bulerias compas part(as heard on ceperos pura cepa and PDLs almoraima):

3p0
2
3
2
0
x



mark indigo -> RE: Which Paco influenced the other more? (Sep. 7 2015 16:57:46)

quote:

As per Camaron/Cepero, in Rito it is clear Cepero is the PREFERED tocar.


how so?



mark indigo -> RE: Which Paco influenced the other more? (Sep. 7 2015 17:30:18)

quote:

I'm curious to know who came up with playing this chord as arpeggio in the end of bulerias compas part(as heard on ceperos pura cepa and PDLs almoraima):


I can't answer your question, but have to add that PDL also used that arpegio earlier too, on Cepa Andaluza (Fuente Y Caudal album '73), Punta del Faro (Duende Flamenco album '72), and both Bulerías on Son Tus Ojos Dos Estrellas album with Camarón 1971.

When was Pura Cepa released? I think 2000 - but Cepero did use that arpegio on "Sueños en Jerez" on Amuleto album released 1977



Ricardo -> RE: Which Paco influenced the other more? (Sep. 7 2015 17:40:06)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

I'm curious to know who came up with playing this chord as arpeggio in the end of bulerias compas part(as heard on ceperos pura cepa and PDLs almoraima):


I can't answer your question, but have to add that PDL also used that arpegio earlier too, on Cepa Andaluza (Fuente Y Caudal album '73), Punta del Faro (Duende Flamenco album '72), and both Bulerías on Son Tus Ojos Dos Estrellas album with Camarón 1971.

When was Pura Cepa released? I think 2000 - but Cepero did use that arpegio on "Sueños en Jerez" on Amuleto album released 1977



The famous "Woody Wood Pecker" arp. Cepero uses it accompanying Maria Vargas on 1969 Festival Flamenco Gitano 1 Live... in the same performance he uses one of PDL picado falsetas. Hard to say who invented it, I think I might have heard Niño Ricardo do it but can't find anything. Cepero's recording remains the earliest one I know of.

In regards to "How so?" in Rito...the glaring absense of PDL's guitar work with Camaron, despite the fact he is SITTING RIGHT there with them, and even Turronero. If you have the complete set you realize not only this, but they feature Paco playing solo guitar only, and even they all leave except for Turronero who patiently watches Paco play Rondeña....and as I already alluded to the implications of Camaron's admissions regarding Canastera in his own episode. They even set up the program as a mock recording studio session where Cepero is his guitarist instead of PDL/Ramon as he is famous for. All this coupled with PDL's own admission of not performing with cantaores in public due to embarassment of getting more accolades, I think it is painful obvious what was going on at the time.

Ricardo



estebanana -> RE: Which Paco influenced the other more? (Sep. 8 2015 4:38:16)

I think you al need to read Meyer's book which will tell you everything you need to know about Paco on Paco.

[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]



mark indigo -> RE: Which Paco influenced the other more? (Sep. 8 2015 9:42:20)

quote:

If you have the complete set you realize not only this, but they feature Paco playing solo guitar only


I have all the ones I could get, 1-9, 11, 13 & 15

I have read that Paco's father steered him away from too much accompanying, at least in public, to promote him as a soloist, coupled with, as you say
quote:

PDL's own admission of not performing with cantaores in public due to embarassment of getting more accolades
just makes it look less and less clear that it is only Camarón's particular preference and more a murky mixture of what Camarón wants to be seen doing (accompanied by a fellow Gitano perhaps), what PDL, or his management wants to be seen doing (being the top soloist), and who knows what they really want or prefer.... by all accounts they were friends who hung out a lot together and played and sang a lot together for their own entertainment and enjoyment, and much admired each other. Same goes for PDL and Cepero, and Paco del Gastor too. I don't get the impression there was any great rivalry between any of them, they all hung out together, listened to each other, admired each other's individual styles etc. etc.



Ricardo -> RE: Which Paco influenced the other more? (Sep. 8 2015 11:59:40)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

If you have the complete set you realize not only this, but they feature Paco playing solo guitar only


I have all the ones I could get, 1-9, 11, 13 & 15

I have read that Paco's father steered him away from too much accompanying, at least in public, to promote him as a soloist, coupled with, as you say
quote:

PDL's own admission of not performing with cantaores in public due to embarassment of getting more accolades
just makes it look less and less clear that it is only Camarón's particular preference and more a murky mixture of what Camarón wants to be seen doing (accompanied by a fellow Gitano perhaps), what PDL, or his management wants to be seen doing (being the top soloist), and who knows what they really want or prefer.... by all accounts they were friends who hung out a lot together and played and sang a lot together for their own entertainment and enjoyment, and much admired each other. Same goes for PDL and Cepero, and Paco del Gastor too. I don't get the impression there was any great rivalry between any of them, they all hung out together, listened to each other, admired each other's individual styles etc. etc.


I never mentioned rivalry. Perhaps the dynamic is more obvious to me as I have been in the working environment with gitanos and non gitanos for some years. Being called a "solista" for your great solo guitar skills is the opposite of a compliment. The trusted guitarist always ends up with guitar in hand in the informal gathering...which is how Rito tries to portray each episode. The little gathering of Paco Camaron Cepero and Turronero has these forms broken up amongst several episodes:Tientos, Buleria (turronero), Fandango, Taranto, Tangos, Buleria (camaron....all accomp by Cepero as Paco looks on. His dad made him do that? After countless albums as accompanist for various singers?[:D]) Paco does the Buleria solo, and finally a Rondeña but Camaron and Cepero leave and he and turronero are in an adjacent room. Paco is only shown accompanying his brother in his own program.

Finally, after hearing the fairy tale of their hunky dory relationship, in La Busqueda PDL finally admits he did not really know Camaron personally at all...saying he was a very closed person. I am sure many fans were shocked. I was not surprised by that statement in the least...especially after noticing this dynamic through the years and having my own personal experiences, the fact there is NO tv footage of the two save that one special where it is just buleria, and the whole sad story of accusation about royalty after Camaron's death by family, etc. When you say "accomp by fellow Gitano perhaps?"....that gets right at the issue.



JohnWalshGuitar -> RE: Which Paco influenced the other more? (Sep. 8 2015 12:20:33)

Haha Ricardo, what you say about being called a 'solista' is so true. I don't like the attitude personally but you are 100% correct



estebanana -> RE: Which Paco influenced the other more? (Sep. 8 2015 15:25:28)

What would have happened if Paco had followed Nino Ricardo's line of thinking farther out instead of getting under Sabicas' wing?

Anyone care to loosely speculate?



mark indigo -> RE: Which Paco influenced the other more? (Sep. 8 2015 16:33:30)

quote:

Perhaps the dynamic is more obvious to me as I have been in the working environment with gitanos and non gitanos for some years. Being called a "solista" for your great solo guitar skills is the opposite of a compliment. ................ His dad made him do that? After countless albums as accompanist for various singers? ) ............ the fact there is NO tv footage of the two save that one special where it is just buleria,


yeah, I'm well aware of both the gitano/non-gitano dynamic, and also how "solista" is used pejoratively.

The stuff about PDL's father managing his early career kinda surprised me when I read about it, but I don't know how accurate or reliable the information is.
I put off reading Don Pohren's book on PDL and family for a long time 'cos I thought it would be negative, but I eventually relented and actually found it quite interesting.
PDL did a lot of albums accompanying singers, as you say, but Antonio negotiated those "con la colaboración especial" titles, not just on Camarón's albums (Niño de Barbate, El Lebrijano), and supposedly limited, restricted and/or prevented the amount of live juerga/tablao work PDL did.
This strategy was to build up a kind of mystique, to make his profile as something special, not "just an accompanist" always available to play for singers or dancers.
Reduce the supply to increase the demand I guess.
PDL grew up around flamenco artists, saying he knew the palos and cantes before he even learned the guitar, he wouldn't have been desperate to accompany any singer going, he probably would enjoy the opportunity to kick back, have a few drinks, listen to the cante and let someone else do the work! Just speculation I know[;)]

As to the lack of film of PDL and Camarón, I know what you mean and would draw the same conclusion but for a couple of points. First there is very little film of Camarón from the 70's with any accompanist. Second there is a sizeable chunk of what little film there is with Ramón, who I understand accompanied Camarón regularly live. Third I heard Tomatito got the job accompanying Camarón 'cos he "could play like Paco de Lucía".



tk -> RE: Which Paco influenced the other more? (Sep. 8 2015 18:06:10)

Nice to know...

IMO, I never felt like, in terms of technical ability, Cepero was anywhere near to Paco's.

In terms of taste for composing their musics, PDL's phrasing has always been superior too and less predictable than Cepero's.

TK



mark indigo -> RE: Which Paco influenced the other more? (Sep. 8 2015 19:33:25)

quote:

The famous "Woody Wood Pecker" arp. Cepero uses it accompanying Maria Vargas on 1969 Festival Flamenco Gitano 1 Live... in the same performance he uses one of PDL picado falsetas. Hard to say who invented it, I think I might have heard Niño Ricardo do it but can't find anything. Cepero's recording remains the earliest one I know of.


are we talking about the same phrase? where in the track is it? I'm just listening to it for the 3rd time through. I'm not hearing it anywhere.... but maybe my attention wandered the same place each time?



Mark2 -> RE: Which Paco influenced the other more? (Sep. 8 2015 20:56:21)

It's an arpeggio close in buleria compas ending with a pull off-he played it a lot. And so does everyone else. It starts on 10. I always hear his name when I hear it-same amount of syllables as there are notes.
Pa co de lu ci a. See Tele's post above.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

The famous "Woody Wood Pecker" arp. Cepero uses it accompanying Maria Vargas on 1969 Festival Flamenco Gitano 1 Live... in the same performance he uses one of PDL picado falsetas. Hard to say who invented it, I think I might have heard Niño Ricardo do it but can't find anything. Cepero's recording remains the earliest one I know of.


are we talking about the same phrase? where in the track is it? I'm just listening to it for the 3rd time through. I'm not hearing it anywhere.... but maybe my attention wandered the same place each time?



orsonw -> RE: Which Paco influenced the other more? (Sep. 8 2015 22:30:25)

quote:

quote:

The famous "Woody Wood Pecker" arp. Cepero uses it accompanying Maria Vargas on 1969 Festival Flamenco Gitano 1 Live... in the same performance he uses one of PDL picado falsetas. Hard to say who invented it, I think I might have heard Niño Ricardo do it but can't find anything. Cepero's recording remains the earliest one I know of.



are we talking about the same phrase? where in the track is it?


3.21



estebanana -> RE: Which Paco influenced the other more? (Sep. 9 2015 1:36:03)

Paco changes his endings in a more surprising way than any other player, I think.



mark indigo -> RE: Which Paco influenced the other more? (Sep. 9 2015 16:17:22)

quote:

It's an arpeggio close in buleria compas ending with a pull off-he played it a lot. And so does everyone else. It starts on 10. I always hear his name when I hear it-same amount of syllables as there are notes. Pa co de lu ci a. See Tele's post above.

I know what it is, I just missed it twice in a row! yeah, duh me![:D]

quote:

3.21
got it, thanks. I guess cos on PDL recordings he used it over and over and over again I was expecting that, and Cepero uses it right after the cante so I was listening to that and just didn't notice he snuck that arpegio just the one time![:D]



Ricardo -> RE: Which Paco influenced the other more? (Sep. 9 2015 18:07:08)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

It's an arpeggio close in buleria compas ending with a pull off-he played it a lot. And so does everyone else. It starts on 10. I always hear his name when I hear it-same amount of syllables as there are notes. Pa co de lu ci a. See Tele's post above.

I know what it is, I just missed it twice in a row! yeah, duh me![:D]

quote:

3.21
got it, thanks. I guess cos on PDL recordings he used it over and over and over again I was expecting that, and Cepero uses it right after the cante so I was listening to that and just didn't notice he snuck that arpegio just the one time![:D]


Yes that 1969 example is quite obscure, but off top of my head the earliest recorded example I am aware of.

Now this recording I think was also done in 1969, but not sure if it preceded the Festival with Cepero:

http://youtu.be/EachFAA35Do



mark indigo -> RE: Which Paco influenced the other more? (Sep. 11 2015 9:55:55)

quote:

Now this recording I think was also done in 1969, but not sure if it preceded the Festival with Cepero: http://youtu.be/EachFAA35Do


oh dear, my bad again, I skimmed through that track for arpegio evidence when I posted above the other later tracks with Camarón, I obviously failed to spot he plays it at least the 3 times I just counted in that track, but not in the other bulerías on that album. Found it much easier to hear when I shut down the left channel so could hear Paco more clearly without Ramón.

Now I'm paying better attention I hear it is also in La Andan Hablando (1970)



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