What is idea of soundboard calibration before bracing? (Full Version)

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Ahmed Flamenco -> What is idea of soundboard calibration before bracing? (Jun. 18 2015 9:48:40)

guys, I've seen few demonstrations before where a luthier calibrate the soundboard before he decide where to put his braces.
so I'd like to know what is this and how can I learn it?



Jeff Highland -> RE: What is idea of soundboard calibration before bracing? (Jun. 18 2015 21:33:54)

There are a few methods for determining thickness of the soundboard, but I have not seen them used for choosing positioning of braces



Ahmed Flamenco -> RE: What is idea of soundboard calibration before bracing? (Jun. 19 2015 1:00:27)

I mean when they put dust and check for resonance?



Jeff Highland -> RE: What is idea of soundboard calibration before bracing? (Jun. 19 2015 5:15:30)

That is called Chladni patterns, Alan Carruth is the expert on free plate tuning using this method, but as I understand he uses it when carving braces to final size rather than determining their locations.
It is not a method I have been drawn to, I prefer to do my testing on soundboards when they are built into the box since support conditions are vastly different to a free plate.
I think it was Doreen Hutchings who pioneered the technique on Violin soundboards.



Fawkes -> RE: What is idea of soundboard calibration before bracing? (Jun. 19 2015 5:24:09)

Carleen Hutchins, FWIW.



estebanana -> RE: What is idea of soundboard calibration before bracing? (Jun. 19 2015 11:57:35)

I thought Alan Carruth said free plate tuning was not helpful and he uses the tone generator to look at tops that are attached to ribs and back??

I thought that was his deal.

Most people think free plate tuning is a misleading way to build. I never bothered to investigate it. I read Siminoff's book on free plate tuning and was sufficiently confused and bewildered to never do that stuff. And for flamenco guitars I doubt you need that to make good ones.



keith -> RE: What is idea of soundboard calibration before bracing? (Jun. 19 2015 13:28:45)

mr. carruth's article

http://www.alcarruthluthier.com/Downloads/Acoustic1.pdf



Edzard -> RE: What is idea of soundboard calibration before bracing? (Jun. 19 2015 13:31:31)

http://www.blanchardguitars.com/guitarpages/chladni/chladni_buy.php

Excellent read/info.

Then there are the books from Trevor Gore.
You measure the frequency of the long grain mode, the cross grain and twisting mode, density, weight etc.
In the design book there are some formulars how to measure/predict the target thickness of the top/back with these measuremens. It's a good/nice starting point.



Best regards,


Edzard



SephardRick -> RE: What is idea of soundboard calibration before bracing? (Jun. 19 2015 14:32:45)

Thanks for the link, Keith.

Interesting reading....



estebanana -> RE: What is idea of soundboard calibration before bracing? (Jun. 19 2015 15:24:20)

quote:

Excellent read/info.

Then there are the books from Trevor Gore.
You measure the frequency of the long grain mode, the cross grain and twisting mode, density, weight etc.
In the design book there are some formulars how to measure/predict the target thickness of the top/back with these measuremens. It's a good/nice starting point.




And then he measured Conde's and pronounced the tops are too thick, but guess which guitar more pro players pick?

These conversations about tuning get so depressing.



Jeff Highland -> RE: What is idea of soundboard calibration before bracing? (Jun. 19 2015 22:37:00)

quote:

I thought Alan Carruth said free plate tuning was not helpful and he uses the tone generator to look at tops that are attached to ribs and back?? I thought that was his deal. Most people think free plate tuning is a misleading way to build. I never bothered to investigate it. I read Siminoff's book on free plate tuning and was sufficiently confused and bewildered to never do that stuff. And for flamenco guitars I doubt you need that to make good ones.

Alan has a Dvd out for sale with his free plate tuning methods.
I don't have it, but I gather he is more interested in the shapes of the patterns produced rather than the frequencies. He agrees that you cannot predict final frequencies from free plate measurements.
Simminoff's writings are illogical crap IMHO

Trevor Gore's testing and calculation methods are not prescriptive in giving an absolute soundboard thickness. There is a factor "f" which you use to tune the results to your preferences. Once you chose this factor you get a target thickness which can give you a more consistent result between your builds, whether you are using a light cedar or a heavy spruce.
He then uses modal tuning methods to fine tune the resonances of the finished guitar.
BTW, Estebanana I had one of your guitars here and tested it's resonances and it was pretty much exactly where Trevor Gore would recommend



estebanana -> RE: What is idea of soundboard calibration before bracing? (Jun. 20 2015 0:14:25)

quote:

BTW, Estebanana I had one of your guitars here and tested it's resonances and it was pretty much exactly where Trevor Gore would recommend


Which one? A six or seven string?



Jeff Highland -> RE: What is idea of soundboard calibration before bracing? (Jun. 20 2015 0:42:49)

Holy Evil's 6 string, a very nice sounding guitar.



estebanana -> RE: What is idea of soundboard calibration before bracing? (Jun. 20 2015 0:56:01)

Thank you.



Morante -> RE: What is idea of soundboard calibration before bracing? (Jun. 20 2015 15:54:36)

quote:


And then he measured Conde's and pronounced the tops are too thick, but guess which guitar more pro players pick?


I remember trying to select a good guitar sound in the studio. We had a Gerundino, a Reyes and a good Conde. Live the Gerundino was easily best, Reyes second and the Conde the beater.

Recorded with various mics, the Conde was the easiest to get a good recorded sound, probably because of its limited harmonic response.

Horses for courses, as they say[;)]



Anders Eliasson -> RE: What is idea of soundboard calibration before bracing? (Jun. 21 2015 9:13:44)

Morante,
your experiences are pretty much what i have experienced and have been told by pro Spanish players.
They choose their guitars because of microphone capacity and not because of actual sound.
My conclusion: Poor bastards. I feel sorry for them. (ahh, I didnt use the C word. Not just once, so please dont make quotes and write something about this C word thing [:D])



Anders Eliasson -> RE: What is idea of soundboard calibration before bracing? (Jun. 21 2015 9:17:53)

quote:

Most people think free plate tuning is a misleading way to build. I never bothered to investigate it. I read Siminoff's book on free plate tuning and was sufficiently confused and bewildered to never do that stuff. And for flamenco guitars I doubt you need that to make good ones.


haha. I agree. If you want to get confused, read Siminoff. If you want to confuse someone else, give them that book by Siminoff.



estebanana -> RE: What is idea of soundboard calibration before bracing? (Jun. 21 2015 10:07:29)

quote:

I remember trying to select a good guitar sound in the studio. We had a Gerundino, a Reyes and a good Conde. Live the Gerundino was easily best, Reyes second and the Conde the beater.

Recorded with various mics, the Conde was the easiest to get a good recorded sound, probably because of its limited harmonic response.

Horses for courses, as they say


I've had these discussions with players too and they can be all over the map with what they like in recorded sound. Some players love guitars with harmonic sparkle and some don't. But I have to say in my limited experience in studios and mic-ing guitar on stage the less showy the over tones the easier to perform with. Players still have preferences.

I break it down as Huge Room with foam and cloth covered seats guitars, Tile Patio with Wrought Iron furniture guitars and Studio with console full of twiddley knobs with Kitchen and coffee maker guitars. [:D][:D]



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