La Busqueda Documentary (Full Version)

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jg7238 -> La Busqueda Documentary (Jun. 17 2015 5:07:32)

There is a part in the documentary where Paco says he doesn't believe in geniuses. He is more of a believer in hard work and talent. I just wanted to know what you guys think about that. Thanks....



BarkellWH -> RE: La Busqueda Documentary (Jun. 17 2015 6:33:43)

There is an old saying that success consists of ten percent inspiration and 90 percent perspiration. I think that's what Paco meant, and I would agree with him.

Bill



Pimientito -> RE: La Busqueda Documentary (Jun. 17 2015 8:46:56)

Hmmm....If you take 100 people and have them all practising an art, craft or sport for 8 hours a day for 10 years , most will reach a professional level and one will end up excelling way better than others. I think a genius doesnt need so much time to gain the same result that a non genius needs with simple hard work.

Saying that, no matter if you are a genius or not, there is no replacement for tenacity, practise, study and hard work in whatever you decide to do.



Estevan -> RE: La Busqueda Documentary (Jun. 17 2015 13:31:27)

Many years ago, in reply to some comment or question about being a genius, I heard Paco say "Anyone can be a genius".



Paul Magnussen -> RE: La Busqueda Documentary (Jun. 17 2015 16:30:19)

quote:

There is an old saying that success consists of ten percent inspiration and 90 percent perspiration. I think that's what Paco meant, and I would agree with him.


So Ramón wasn’t the greatest guitarist of the last 50 years simply because he didn't work as hard as Paco. Right.

And the same with Sabicas’s brother Diego, no doubt.



jg7238 -> RE: La Busqueda Documentary (Jun. 17 2015 16:41:24)

Thanks for the replies everyone. I agree 100 percent with you Pimientito..



Ricardo -> RE: La Busqueda Documentary (Jun. 17 2015 17:45:36)

because in the other doc he quotes stravinsky saying that great artists borrow from each other their creative ideas, and the real "geniuses" (implying himself) simply steal material outright.

My feeling is that a genius is simpley an INSPIRED person that inspires others. Timing is important. There are lots of "genius" moments in the lives of artists and even scientists. Einstein went through such a period of his life, but the inspiration did not last obviously. Still, we consider him a "genius" if not the archetype. Some one like PDL seemed to be inspired throughout his career which is rare for sure.

Ricardo



jg7238 -> RE: La Busqueda Documentary (Jun. 17 2015 18:40:31)

quote:

Timing is important.


For sure Ricardo... Thanks for chiming in... There are so many great flamenco guitarists/composers but when you hear "Mi Nino Curro", "La Barrosa", etc.... Damn, it's musically and technically perfect. Alright, I just had to let that off my chest.



Pimientito -> RE: La Busqueda Documentary (Jun. 17 2015 19:06:46)

Dont forget that most geniuses underestimate their talent. They just see everyone else as slow.
Bach said "...all one has to do is hit the right notes at the right time and the instrument plays itself"
Fernando Sors "Andante Largo" which is pretty tricky comes from opus 5. "six very easy little pieces"
Gerardo Nuñez always told his advanced class before teaching launching into high speed improvised 3 finger picados "sin embargo la tecnica es muy facil, la mano derecha siempre igual" ( non the less the technique is very easy, the right hand always does the same)

Paco pretty much reinvented a musical form single handedly and as we can see from his discography, produced a body of work comparable to any of the great composers. What he probably saw as an obvious evolution of hard work and dedication was what everyone else perceives as genius.



BarkellWH -> RE: La Busqueda Documentary (Jun. 18 2015 0:31:55)

quote:

So Ramón wasn’t the greatest guitarist of the last 50 years simply because he didn't work as hard as Paco. Right.


No, I'm sure that Ramon worked as hard as Paco. But art and music evolve, and flamenco had not evolved in Ramon's time to the extent that it had by Paco's time. Paco did not create his style and work out of thin air, using the musical equivalent of "thought experiments," as Einstein, for example, did in developing his theories. Paco built his ouvre over time on the precedents set by his predecessors, Ramon, Nino Ricardo, and Sabicas.

What Paco did was extend the possibilities of flamenco. No question. And he set precedents himself. But was Paco any more a genius in his time and place (and I emphasize "genius" because that's what this thread is addressing) than Ramon or Sabicas were in their times and places? I know there will be different thoughts on this, but I think it is a question worthy of debate.

Bill



estebanana -> RE: La Busqueda Documentary (Jun. 18 2015 1:40:58)

Half of Genius is knowing which stuff to steal- The other half is having put in the time practicing to know how to play back the stolen stuff to make it sound new.

Stravinsky took Rimsky-Korsakov late work and turned it inside out and then he got 'Le Sacre'.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Jun. 18 2015 2:00:58)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jun. 21 2015 4:38:08



Ricardo -> RE: La Busqueda Documentary (Jun. 18 2015 19:38:32)

quote:

No, I'm sure that Ramon worked as hard as Paco. But art and music evolve, and flamenco had not evolved in Ramon's time to the extent that it had by Paco's time. Paco did not create his style and work out of thin air, using the musical equivalent of "thought experiments," as Einstein, for example, did in developing his theories. Paco built his ouvre over time on the precedents set by his predecessors, Ramon, Nino Ricardo, and Sabicas.


Actually, in the way Einstein followed logic from learning about Maxwell equations and others, yes Paco had the same type of genius creative moments in his early career that carried forward from what he had learned till then. Ramon taught paco what he had learned from nino ricardo...then Paco took off doing his own things and inspired generations afterward. In the case of both einstein and paco...sure someone else probably would have come along and made the same "discoveries" but as it turned out it fell on their shoulders being in the right place at the right time. In the same way some folks don't "get" Einstein or want to find an alternative to his theories, many people don't "get" paco's music since it evolved and found new directions. But you can't take away the "genius" of either one.

Ricardo



Miguel de Maria -> RE: La Busqueda Documentary (Jun. 18 2015 20:05:57)

Bill,
are you comparing Ramon Montoya and Paco de Lucia (two great flamenco figures) or Ramon de Algeciras and Paco de Lucia (brothers, one an average pro and one a great flamenco figure)? Thinking there might be some miscommunication going on here.



BarkellWH -> RE: La Busqueda Documentary (Jun. 18 2015 23:52:02)

quote:

Bill,
are you comparing Ramon Montoya and Paco de Lucia (two great flamenco figures) or Ramon de Algeciras and Paco de Lucia (brothers, one an average pro and one a great flamenco figure)? Thinking there might be some miscommunication going on here.


Miguel,

Thanks for noting that. I definitely was comparing Ramon Montoya and the state of flamenco during his era with Paco de Lucia and the state of flamenco during his era. That's what I meant when I stated that flamenco had not evolved in Ramon's era to the extent it had evolved in Paco's era. I was trying to make the point that Paco had a much greater base to build upon and to extend flamenco and set precedents, a base that was unavailable during Ramon's era. Thus, my rhetorical question: Can we really say that Paco was a "genius" and Ramon was not? I think it is a question worthy of debate.

Thanks for bringing this up, Miguel. We may have been talking past each other here, at least where my post is concerned. Sorry if I have confused the issue.

Cheers,

Bill



BarkellWH -> RE: La Busqueda Documentary (Jun. 18 2015 23:54:30)

quote:

Ramon taught paco what he had learned from nino ricardo..


Ricardo, please see my response to Miguel's excellent observation. Miguel is correct in noting that I should have stated clearly I was referring to Ramon Montoya. Sorry about the confusion.

Cheers,

Bill



Pimientito -> RE: La Busqueda Documentary (Jun. 19 2015 12:42:01)

That confused me too. However I would say that I think it is unfair to call Ramon de Algeciras an "average pro". Ramon de Algeciras was one of the most recorded accompanist players of his day along with Paco Cepero and Manolo Sanlucar. Much of the material on Pacos first recordings was based on Falsetas and exercises that Ramon taught Paco. If it wasnt for the fact that Ramon (and everyone else) fell into the shadow of Pacos enormous talent he would have been known as one of the worlds best players.



estebanana -> RE: La Busqueda Documentary (Jun. 19 2015 15:30:25)

Ramon de A. is no slouch, wow I seldom think about it but Pimientito is right, he really was over shadowed by his brother. A fine player.

As for Don Ramon being genius, maybe. People sure still play his falsetas, some top pros pull them out now & then and give them a twist.

A good book about flamenco could be titled 'A Tale of Two Ramons"



Ricardo -> RE: La Busqueda Documentary (Jun. 19 2015 16:47:15)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

quote:

Ramon taught paco what he had learned from nino ricardo..


Ricardo, please see my response to Miguel's excellent observation. Miguel is correct in noting that I should have stated clearly I was referring to Ramon Montoya. Sorry about the confusion.

Cheers,

Bill


In that sense you are correct....and I personally have felt for many years now that the two stand as the two most important pillars in the history of flamenco guitar. I can separate their importance and influence from other players I simply "like" and enjoy as much or more than them depending on my mood and taste... as I see it, flamenco guitar would be completely different without either one of these guys.



jg7238 -> RE: La Busqueda Documentary (Jun. 21 2015 17:57:31)

quote:

"sin embargo la tecnica es muy facil, la mano derecha siempre igual" ( non the less the technique is very easy, the right hand always does the same)


I remember Paco saying in an interview the left hand is the intelligent one. It's the one that creates. Ahhh, I found it. It's at the very beginning...




Miguel de Maria -> RE: La Busqueda Documentary (Jun. 22 2015 14:32:23)

Seems to me most people have problems with the right hand, and there are a lot of people with great left hands, not so much the right.



Ricardo -> RE: La Busqueda Documentary (Jun. 22 2015 19:05:29)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jg7238

quote:

"sin embargo la tecnica es muy facil, la mano derecha siempre igual" ( non the less the technique is very easy, the right hand always does the same)


I remember Paco saying in an interview the left hand is the intelligent one. It's the one that creates. Ahhh, I found it. It's at the very beginning...




He was making a cute political statement and later got his butt kicked on the street by a gang of right wingers that took offense to his little joke.



johnnefastis -> RE: La Busqueda Documentary (Jul. 21 2015 23:07:59)

Can't believe I finally got round to watching this. Wow.. Awesome !

It gave me more questions than answers.

Aside from incredible playing, left right joke etc, it was so great to watch him, fiddling round with audio gear and sat at the computer editing tracks... Did he really record and produce some material in his house like that, at one point you could just see a mic over the sofa ?



tele -> RE: La Busqueda Documentary (Jul. 24 2015 21:27:19)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

He was making a cute political statement and later got his butt kicked on the street by a gang of right wingers that took offense to his little joke.


Seems unlikely to me or the political statement was pretty sublime?[8D]



Ricardo -> RE: La Busqueda Documentary (Jul. 25 2015 18:42:56)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tele

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

He was making a cute political statement and later got his butt kicked on the street by a gang of right wingers that took offense to his little joke.


Seems unlikely to me or the political statement was pretty sublime?[8D]

It was a tense time .... Read Paco biography of your choice



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