gotta love this palo when its done tight and right :)
ive never had a problem with the basic groove and compas, but to really elevate it and vary it rhythmically and keep it in the pocket can sometimes prove elusive for me.... in particular, i often hear it shift to straight sixes, but it s not always clear to me where that happens on and how to get back it out of it. I usually hear it go into a series of six on count 12 and then cycle on that for a few times, but im interested to learn of other approaches and variations -- any thoughts and wisdom appreciated !
if you deal with it as strictly 16th's in 3/4 time (quarter note equals 115 bpm or so), all the synchopations of the 12 16th notes per bar, will fall into place nicely. The important distinction of the compas is "remate". That would be ending on the 3rd beat of the bar some how and making it all feel that is where it's headed. I strongly suggest NOT trying to just figure things out, rather, learn very specific patterns of rhythm from the maestros and arrange them in a way that you can practice them all together, in hopes you will eventually be able to "improvise" by pulling them from your ever growing compas bag on the fly.
that does help, thanks! --- i hear falsetas/lllamadas ending on 10 or 12 a lot as well, so its also a question of negotiating sixes before that. compas is very similar to Indian taal in that regard, with everything driving to the 'sam'.
I was about to post a similar question after trying to learn a Moraito bulerias falsetas (specifically, the first one in this video: After much confusion, I finally come to the realisation that the falseta seems to end on 4. You can't tell in this video, but on full version when he plays the full bulerias, he starts the compas on what would've been 6, but it's as if it jumps back to 12.
My best attempt at explaining this is that part way through the falseta he switches to bulerias in 6, and then switches back at the end. Is this a common thing in bulerias and flamenco in general? How does the guy playing the cajon know to switch to bulerias in 6 for the second half of the falseta?
A few years ago, I was invited to a fiesta de cumpleaños in la Peña flamenca los Cernicalos, Jerez. Asked to bring my guitar, I protested that I played badly por bulerías. I was assured that there would be other guitarrists. Mentira.
I had to accompany six different cantaores for 2 hours por bulerías[:o]. At the end, one of them complimented me on my compás. All I could say was that I accompanied the cante and listened to the palmas: every time los gitanos hicieron a remate, I did one too[:D]. They knew, I didn´t.
Flamenco, en muchos sentidos, is easy. En otros sentidos, it is impossible if you are not Andaluz y flamenco.
ORIGINAL: jazzab . You can't tell in this video, but on full version when he plays the full bulerias, he starts the compas on what would've been 6, but it's as if it jumps back to 12.
My best attempt at explaining this is that part way through the falseta he switches to bulerias in 6, and then switches back at the end. Is this a common thing in bulerias and flamenco in general? How does the guy playing the cajon know to switch to bulerias in 6 for the second half of the falseta?
i would imagine the cajon player just hears the switch and follows along...the video isnt playing at the moment for me, but id like to hear it, ill keep checking. But I have the same questions.. when you go to six, what is the protocol or exit strategy, i.e. when you come out, where are you in the cycle?-- ive listened to various bulerias and im not discerning a consistent trend. i also hear sixes starting on 1 or 12 as well. ..
I was about to post a similar question after trying to learn a Moraito bulerias falsetas (specifically, the first one in this video: After much confusion, I finally come to the realisation that the falseta seems to end on 4. You can't tell in this video, but on full version when he plays the full bulerias, he starts the compas on what would've been 6, but it's as if it jumps back to 12.
My best attempt at explaining this is that part way through the falseta he switches to bulerias in 6, and then switches back at the end. Is this a common thing in bulerias and flamenco in general? How does the guy playing the cajon know to switch to bulerias in 6 for the second half of the falseta?
The simple answer is that there is no real "12" in the first place...or you can say that 1,2,3,4,5,6 have the SAME exact "feeling" rhythmically as 7,8,9,10,11,12 respectively. That means 4=10...so he ended on 10. THere are only 2 reasons for counting to 12 ever in buleria instead of 6.
1. you want to make it clear (for whomever cares) the music is "cuadrao" which means square, neatly symmetrical in it's phrasing. There is no rule that says it has to be. In other words we might have an odd number of bars or an even number of bars. What constitutes an "odd" bar is arbitrary. As an analogy a 12 bar blues is deliberately NOT as symmetrical or "cuadrao" as some tune that has a 16 bar structure.
2. you need to communicate musical terms to or with or from a dancer. That also means in cases of "half compas" phrases, weird counting can happen like: 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10, 1,2, 7,8,9,10 !.....because the numbers have musical or rhythmic phrase meaning inherant, not necessarily tied to classical partitura notation.
Notice Morante tried to help by discussing cante again...here there need not ever be any counting of any kind so again it's arbitrary how a falseta counts out.
Thanks for your help guys, but I'm still very confused.
quote:
Notice Morante tried to help by discussing cante again...here there need not ever be any counting of any kind so again it's arbitrary how a falseta counts out.
I am having a hard time understanding that there is no counting.
quote:
All I could say was that I accompanied the cante and listened to the palmas: every time los gitanos hicieron a remate, I did one too . They knew, I didn´t.
Don't the palmas follow a 6 count? Why do you need to listen to the palmas if there is no counting? Is it just so that when you play a chord to match the cante, it falls on one of the beats (but specifically which one doesn't matter)?
quote:
2. you need to communicate musical terms to or with or from a dancer. That also means in cases of "half compas" phrases, weird counting can happen like: 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10, 1,2, 7,8,9,10 !.....because the numbers have musical or rhythmic phrase meaning inherant, not necessarily tied to classical partitura notation.
I don't really understand. You said that this was one of the reasons to count in 12, but the example is not in a 12 count.
In this video, starting at 2:57: https://youtu.be/t4Pk56qez9c?t=2m57s He mentions the "tiempo de tierra" and seems to suggest that I should be counting in 3s. What do you guys think?
I don't really understand. You said that this was one of the reasons to count in 12, but the example is not in a 12 count.
In this video, starting at 2:57: https://youtu.be/t4Pk56qez9c?t=2m57s He mentions the "tiempo de tierra" and seems to suggest that I should be counting in 3s. What do you guys think?
I was illustrating how an extra half compas remate might be counted or rather how the thinking might be in the head of a dancer in such a situation of something that is not cuadrao. If I gave an example of cuadrao music, you might miss the point that it's not really 12 because it counts out that way, it is really 2 groups of 6. As a final analogy think of tangos...they count in 8...but there is no "8/8" meter to actual musicians. THe counting is a device to communicate music to dance...not the way the actual guitarist should be thinking about just his music alone. And Mr. Martins is correct, in spanish uno, dos, tres , cuatro, cinco, seis, siete, ocho, nueve, diez, un, do.... is how 12 beats are counted out loud.
As per the vid above, if one must count at all that is one way, though he confuses the issue by first counting in 3/4 slow and playing buleria fast over top...then suddenly changes his meaning by doing a 6/8 phrase and accents, quietly counting 6/8 as two groups of 3. So which does he really mean? LOL...he means BOTH AT THE SAME TIME.
I felt I made it crystal clear in the very first post I made above how the meter or count should be expressed to a non flamenco musician/ music student that wants to understand the groove and synchopations involved.
There's a falseta that Diego del Morao plays very often in bulerias that goes into a 2/4 feeling on top of what everyone else is doing. If the amount of "1 2 1 2 1 2" sums up to what it should, he and all other players involved will land on the "checkpoints" without a problem, regardless of what the feel for the counting might be.
I just don't know where to find Diego or his father playing that particular falseta but someone might know which one Iam talking about and post an example. That might help you.
There's a falseta that Diego del Morao plays very often in bulerias that goes into a 2/4 feeling on top of what everyone else is doing. If the amount of "1 2 1 2 1 2" sums up to what it should....
1,2,1,2,1,2= one measure of 3/4...that is the basic underlying groove of buleria in general as I have been saying, and they are just punching it out....unless you are talking about some weird falseta that crosses the bar line I am not familiar with.
Instead of the "TA ta ta Ta ta ta" feel he plays the falseta with a "TA ta TA ta TA ta" feel. I just think it's a nice example for the OP to understand how different counts/feels all add up to the same no matter how the other players (another guitarist, pameros, cajon, etc) are counting or feeling the measures (compas).
In my noob opinion, counting in 6's won't get you lost when half compas happens... or maybe just count in 12 but know when the clock restarts at the middle.
This is more about compas then counting. But I'm trying to say below that counting in one way is not good.
For years I thought I needed to count in 12s. I had a rough time because tempo is just to fast to feel the Rythm like that. The Foro pointed out to me that Bulerias is very polyrhythmic, so you have to adapt.
2 things help me. Some of this has been said already.
First, What helped me a lot is to think in 6. like TRAN- tri tri -Tran tri -rest. So it's sort of like a waltz in 3. But it gives the 12 cycle a rise and fall feeling. For example, do three cycles of this. Then on the last 6, to make it a full 12, you can do the usual 6 -Seven -Eight -9 -10. Or , you can repeat the previous. So, for this I tap my foot in 3's usually.
Don't try and complicate this and translate numbers to 12 as your going. just feel the pulse. The faster things go, the less numbers you can squeeze in on a 6 count.
Second, just feel the down beat. Divide it up into 8ths or 16tjs and tap your foot to the downbeat of the falseta. Because you might get lost if your listening to percussion in 6s but the falseta is not felt that way. Don't even count at first. Just tap like a metronome.
Focus on Issac first. Playing the Cajon. Note his pulse is like the 6 feel. It has space. Then watch Chicuelo tapping his foot. Feel the pulse or downbeat of his falsetas. He is subdividing more and tapping his foot faster to keep track. You could feel the compas either way. But if I was playing a falseta or trying to understand its play on the compas I would tap along with Chicuelo and not think about 12s at that moment. So, two ways of counting or feeling so to speak. Pick one.
Here's the "1 2 1 2 1 2..." feel falseta that I had mentioned (@ 6s, also at 2:50):
While both you and Jason are trying to help, you are both pointing to examples that are basic pulse in 3/4 meter as I described in my first post... Yet both you guys don't seem to acknowledge it. Chicuelos foot tap (and Diego in these specific spots) are the basic quarter note pulse at 115 bpm or so IN 3/4 meter, strumming 16th notes or whatever. Chicuelo is maintains that throughout entire piece revealing that this beat is most fundamental regardless of the other types of feels bulerias can take on. In other words as I said all along ... Forget about 6 or 12 or any other complicated thing ....basic 3 groove will cover ANYTHING
this has been a very helpful thread, thanks all... im still circling back, however, to what i was originally trying to get at: if youre going to do a set in 6's (or 3s), whats the most common starting point -- the 1, or the 12? 12 seems more common and a little more natural to get back out of , but im just wondering whats standard practice and more easily followed by others you may be playing with ...
this has been a very helpful thread, thanks all... im still circling back, however, to what i was originally trying to get at: if youre going to do a set in 6's (or 3s), whats the most common starting point -- the 1, or the 12? 12 seems more common and a little more natural to get back out of , but im just wondering whats standard practice and more easily followed by others you may be playing with ...
12,7,8,9,10,11,12,7,8,9,10,11,12,7,8,9,10. That's what's going on with 6,s 90% of the time
The "1 2 1 2.." is about the feel of the phrase alone as an example of overlapping "feelings" that in the end will "always" come together on 10 or something.
My example was not about how to count, it was about metric relativity and how you can divide it in different chunks.
The "1 2 1 2.." is about the feel of the phrase alone as an example of overlapping "feelings" that in the end will "always" come together on 10 or something.
My example was not about how to count, it was about metric relativity and how you can divide it in different chunks.
I know... And the feel you describe is the feeling of a fundamental 3/4 meter and More importantly THE BASE ....rather than some random overlapped abnormal phrase going against something more fundamental ... Which is how YOU make it sound as if pointing it out with one "special" falseta. The thing you keep talking about is what everybody should be feeling all the time internally ...or at least 90% of the time.
I didn't mean to say it was a random thing against a "non-random" thing. My intention was only to provide a quick example that I think it's very useful for anyone who is looking for rules in how to count/feel bulerias. It kinda breaks the notion of strictness that one gets when starting out and being presented to "the clock" with it's strong beats...and later finding out that lots of things you like don't seem to fit into that 12..3..6.8.10.12 etc (Diego's falseta for example).
Iam not saying that it's not ternary, the 1 2 1 2 thing just means that the phrase by itself can be perfectly heard as binary.
Iam not saying that it's not ternary, the 1 2 1 2 thing just means that the phrase by itself can be perfectly heard as binary.
In the end, 2+2+2 = 3+3.
_____________________________
I know WHAT you mean but saying it is binary is misleading. 1,2,1,2,1,2=1&2&3&... That simple. Defining each beat as DOWN beat is wrong... Only one is the down beat in a group of three beats. Without that feeling the phrase is wrong
I should have a symbol thrown at my head and told "Not My F******Tempo!"
You did say 3/4 meter. I made it sound as if the downbeat was the base maybe? I do mix those up in my head. Don't they teach this in first grade music class?
And Rui is thinking in binary computer codes? ;) We ARE confusing
Once you get past "what's proper" and start grasping things on an abstract level, it's much easier to get back to the stuff and start having a real understanding instead of memorized stuff that "works with this, doesn't work with that..etc".
My posts were NOT about how to count. I tried to present that abstract layer of maths and measures while related to the perceived "feel".
It's like scoring bulerias, everyone will have a different opinion based on different arguments when it comes to time signatures.
As I've already said, the clock is useful but a 12 beat framework is not ideal when trying to understand falsetas that weren't built upon that...although in the end everything will measure up to the same key points where everyone gets together (remate for instance). Oh, and no...it's not a random adding up of whatever beats and that's exactly the reason why 12..3..6.8.10 etc doesn't work for everything.
Time signatures, rhythmic values and their groupings are all relative and even different people perceive them differently.
I think you're too focused on particular segments (counting..) and forgot what the OP said, which makes it hard to understand how my answer relates to that.
