Left handed flamenco guitarists (Full Version)

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tele -> Left handed flamenco guitarists (Apr. 13 2015 0:52:45)

How come I have never seen lefty flamencos?[:)]
Can you show me if there are some?




Dudnote -> RE: Left handed flamenco guitarists (Apr. 13 2015 1:12:38)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tele

How come I have never seen lefty flamencos?[:)]
Can you show me if there are some?

I'm sure I've seen one or two, but can't think where.

My old teacher used to say learning flamenco left-handed was completely stupid because both hands require an enormous effort to develop technique and if at the end of all that work and dedication you can't pick up any old guitar at a jam and join in then what the hell was all that effort for?

Got to say I agree with him.

You don't get left and right handed violins because if you did the orchestra would be constantly poking each other in the eye with their bows. So lefties and righties have to play the same. There's no reason why a lefty couldn't learn to play like a righty other than not wanting to make the effort to work on technique at the very beginning and I imagine in many flamenco families that is not an option.




ngiorgio -> RE: Left handed flamenco guitarists (Apr. 13 2015 3:22:02)

quote:

My old teacher used to say learning flamenco left-handed was completely stupid because both hands require an enormous effort to develop technique and if at the end of all that work and dedication you can't pick up any old guitar at a jam and join in then what the hell was all that effort for?

aint that the truth.[;)]




El Kiko -> RE: Left handed flamenco guitarists (Apr. 13 2015 10:04:42)

Well my best friend and fantastic player in Montilla is a lefty ...

Pacillo (El Cojo) .this is particularly annoying as he has 5 or 6 really nice guitars by great makers ... but can i try them ?.....well yes if i want to .......grrr..... the strings are all upside down ...[:@][:@]

edit ....
WOW Dudnote ... cant say there is anything in your post i agree with ...
and your teacher says that natural lefties should be forced to play the other way around for the benefit of others ... good grief ..
tell you teacher to go and play like a lefty for a year or so ,, then com back and make that statement again




tijeretamiel -> RE: Left handed flamenco guitarists (Apr. 13 2015 11:19:23)

I have come across this guy, I think he mainly teaches



And there's also Myrddin




Dudnote -> RE: Left handed flamenco guitarists (Apr. 13 2015 11:40:30)

quote:

ORIGINAL: El Kiko
WOW Dudnote ... cant say there is anything in your post i agree with ...

Each to his own. But this means you've also seen left handed violins. Where?




Sr. Martins -> RE: Left handed flamenco guitarists (Apr. 13 2015 12:49:07)

quote:

Each to his own. But this means you've also seen left handed violins. Where?


I thought you were joking with that first post, now it's hilarious. [:D]

You can easily find the info you're looking for (are you? hmm...)




El Kiko -> RE: Left handed flamenco guitarists (Apr. 13 2015 13:56:12)

well actually you can buy left handed violins .. and of course there are electric ones that are pretty symmetrical ...
I well know the official orchestral view on left handed players to do with look . and sound balance ...and getting in the way .. I have never subscribed to this , i believe , it is an antiquated and outmoded point of view ...in so much as old school teachers used to go around hitting pupils on the back of the hand with a ruler for writing with their left hand ... [8|][8|]

however this thread is more specifically about Left handed flamenco guitarists ....

how many great players would be have had their music lost to the world if they were forced to go against their own nature ... ?
and why should we make them ?
and furthermore there is a reason why a lefty cant learn to play like a righty .. as you say ...it's because ..he's a lefty ...


It was actually your teachers comment about not being able to pick up a guitar at a jam that got me ....its just so absurd ..
if thats the main, and only reason he has ...so you can jam ....
Why doesnt he go to Montilla where i have some left handed freinds and pick up a one of those guitars for a jam ?... if he cant , what was all his effort for ...?

unless you are suggesting that the rules should not be even for everyone , left and right ?? or perhaps seeing lefties and second class somehow ?/

so long as your happy and it sounds good you can play with your feet ,, left or right if you wan to ...





BarkellWH -> RE: Left handed flamenco guitarists (Apr. 13 2015 16:08:26)

quote:

quote: ORIGINAL: El Kiko
WOW Dudnote ... cant say there is anything in your post i agree with ...

Each to his own. But this means you've also seen left handed violins. Where?


What do violinists in an orchestra have to do with a flamenco guitarist playing left-handed? Apples and oranges.

Bill




BarkellWH -> RE: Left handed flamenco guitarists (Apr. 13 2015 16:16:49)

quote:

how many great players would be have had their music lost to the world if they were forced to go against their own nature ... ?


An example would be the great American blues and folk musician and singer Elizabeth Cotten. She played a right-handed guitar left-handed, in standard tuning without re-stringing it, i.e., she played it left-handed upside down, playing bass with her fingers and melody with her thumb. Her unique style was called, unsurprisingly, "Cotten picking."

Elizabeth Cotten's best known folk song is the old standby "Freight Train," a song that has been covered by everyone from Peter, Paul, and Mary and Pete Seeger to Doc Watson.

Bill




El Kiko -> RE: Left handed flamenco guitarists (Apr. 13 2015 16:25:20)

a freind of mine at school used to do that too .. he played bass , which he re stringed to a lefty .. but the guitar he played as a lefty and then could play mine upside down ..

i asked him once a bout his . why dont you change yours around like you did with the bass ?

'' im too lazy..'' he said ....... [:D]

looks weird to see D major as a triangle on the top of the fret board i always thought...
good bass player though ...


edit ....Elizabeth Cotten's "Freight Train," is on you tube ... any one kind find it .. i didnt know she didnt re string .... ive been edumacated ....




Morante -> RE: Left handed flamenco guitarists (Apr. 13 2015 16:49:13)

left hand piano?




Leñador -> RE: Left handed flamenco guitarists (Apr. 13 2015 16:58:54)

You can't always go by a video btw. My iMac makes my videos look like I'm left handed. I get a lot of messages excitedly saying "Otro zurdo guitarrista!! Ole tu!" I usually don't correct them because they seem so excited to see another lefty lol




BarkellWH -> RE: Left handed flamenco guitarists (Apr. 13 2015 17:27:51)

One other thing about Elizabeth Cotten, she did not study music theory, and as far as I know she neither was "proud" of the fact nor did she "brag" about it. She just learned a unique style of playing on her own and wrote songs to accommodate it, and we are all the better for it, at least those of us who appreciate her music.

Bill




Sr. Martins -> RE: Left handed flamenco guitarists (Apr. 13 2015 17:35:01)

quote:

One other thing about Elizabeth Cotten, she did not study music theory, and as far as I know she neither was "proud" of the fact nor did she "brag" about it. She just learned a unique style of playing on her own and wrote songs to accommodate it, and we are all the better for it, at least those of us who appreciate her music.


Although she didn't "brag" about it, the fact is that she didn't know music theory. I was about to look her up on youtube but it's pointless now since people with no musical knowledge only produce inferior music. I'd rather spend my time listening to composers who are proud of knowing their craft.




BarkellWH -> RE: Left handed flamenco guitarists (Apr. 13 2015 17:48:33)

quote:

Although she didn't "brag" about it, the fact is that she didn't know music theory. I was about to look her up on youtube but it's pointless now since people with no musical knowledge only produce inferior music. I'd rather spend my time listening to composers who are proud of knowing their craft.


People with no knowledge of music theory only produce inferior music??? You think that because Elizabeth Cotten didn't know music theory she was not proud of knowing the craft she did possess??? Elizabeth Cotten was making music and producing songs when your parents were kids, and her music and songs have been covered by many artists since. Her craft is legendary.

You seem to have such an inflated opinion of yourself and your knowledge of music theory, Sr. Martins; but tell me, fifty years from now how many artists are going to be playing music and songs composed by you? How many musicians will be covering your compositions, oh exalted one?! You are rapidly becoming a parody of yourself.

Bill




Sr. Martins -> RE: Left handed flamenco guitarists (Apr. 13 2015 17:57:56)

@BarkelWH

You're so obsessed with the subject that you failed to realize the joke was on you. Also proves once again that when reading what I post you only focus on bits (that you immediately twist and rephrase), otherwise you would've recognized this as a joke.

(Needless to say that Iam talking about the other thread you hijacked to your own agenda and decided to bring over here)




Mark2 -> RE: Left handed flamenco guitarists (Apr. 13 2015 17:59:59)

Flamenco is one of the easiest styles to learn as a lefty in part because of the tradition of learning face to face. As a lefty facing a right handed guitarist it's like looking in a mirror. This is a huge advantage on a gig where you are winging it. Or playing with another guitarist. I think I'm able to see what they are doing more clearly than if I was also right handed. Very simple to see what the guy is doing. I'm a lefty and although I didn't start with flamenco, had no problems playing in dance companies, playing in groups, or of course playing solo.

I have three more than decent flamenco guitars that were all right handed instruments. The only mods needed were changing the strings around and filing the nut. I have one of Ethan's guitars and it did require a little extra work but it plays very well and of course, sounds great. There is the tradition in flamenco of passing a guitar around during juergas, but I've found in the States that that is of little concern.

I'm on Lester's waiting list and he's going to make me a lefty. I'm wondering how much more comfortable it's going to be. Hopefully it will be a noticeable difference. The biggest problem is with good electric guitars. Finding them can be an issue. Also trying out other's guitars. In fact, my knowledge of guitars in general is less than a right hander with comparable experience. Lefty's tend to hold onto instruments more than guys who can always find another similar instrument. There are lefty violins(and there are pros in orchestras who play left handed), ouds, cellos, sitars, you name it.

I feel, at least in my case, playing left handed was the right decision. Back in high school, a buddy let me borrow my first guitar and it was a right handed steel string. When I got my first $60.00 steel string a month or so later, I switched the strings and made immediate strides. But I'm a strongly left handed person-I'm left footed too. Both my brothers were also left handed. As far as Dudnote's teacher's opinion, since he obviously isn't a left handed player, his opinion is perhaps less informed than mine. After 35 years of flamenco activity, I can give you a list of things that have affected my ability to reach a higher level. Playing left handed is not one of them.




Mark2 -> RE: Left handed flamenco guitarists (Apr. 13 2015 18:01:58)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dudnote

quote:

ORIGINAL: El Kiko
WOW Dudnote ... cant say there is anything in your post i agree with ...

Each to his own. But this means you've also seen left handed violins. Where?


I have a lefty violin......you might want to bring some ear plugs if you come over to hear me play it though......




Richard Jernigan -> RE: Left handed flamenco guitarists (Apr. 13 2015 18:06:09)

There is "music theory" as taught in academia, and on the other hand a "theory of music" embodied in the compositions of the likes of Ramon Montoya, Sabicas, and Niño Ricardo.

My sister-in-law, who ran the Nurse Practitioner training program at a major medical school told of a parallel situation. A woman with Type II diabetes was labeled as "non-compliant" with the measures meant to control her blood sugar. My sister-in-law interviewed her. The woman said, "Yes, I use that little meter. When it's too high I go out and work in my garden for a while, and at dinner time I leave the potatoes on my plate. I do a few other things to keep those numbers low."

Measurement of long-term indicators of blood sugar level (A1C) indicated that the woman had been very effective in controlling her blood sugar level, without applying the prescribed insulin dosage algorithm. She didn't verbalize her strategy in the same way as the physicians, but her understanding and strategy were effective.

I read somewhere that when Montoya took a few lessons from the classical guitarist Miguel Llobet, he asked whether he should learn to read music. Llobet's advice was said to be, "No, you are fine working the way you do now."

When asked, Sabicas always claimed to be self taught, and unable to read music.

Niño Ricardo worked for Javier Molina, a noted guitarist and teacher, when Molina ran a tablao. So did Manolo de Huelva. I don´t know whether they picked up any of their shared falsetas from Molina, or whether they came from other sources. Like Molina, Manolo played classical as well as flamenco pieces in concert. But I know of no evidence that Ricardo knew any "music theory" as taught in academia.

Were Montoya, Sabicas and Niño Ricardo worse composers than say, Julian Arcas? Or did they each have their own effective "theory of music" than enabled them to compose very well?

RNJ




BarkellWH -> RE: Left handed flamenco guitarists (Apr. 13 2015 18:08:20)

quote:

You're so obsessed with the subject that you failed to realize the joke was on you. Also proves once again that when reading what I post you only focus on bits (that you immediately twist and rephrase), otherwise you would've recognized this as a joke.


It falls flat as a "joke" because it does not in any way deviate from what you have been posting all along in this thread. It is in line with everything you have been saying about guitarists who don't know "theory." I'm afraid that in becoming a parody of yourself, you have rendered a parody of a joke.

Bill




Sr. Martins -> RE: Left handed flamenco guitarists (Apr. 13 2015 18:17:04)

quote:

It falls flat as a "joke" because it does not in any way deviate from what you have been posting all along in this thread. It is in line with everything you have been saying about guitarists who don't know "theory." I'm afraid that in becoming a parody of yourself, you have rendered a parody of a joke.


The joke is exactly the huge gap between what I actually write and what you understand.

Even funnier is the fact that your assumptions are based on totally retarded ideas that have never even crossed my mind.. such has the superior music that comes from people who know theory (that one was one of my favs from you, that's why I brought it).




BarkellWH -> RE: Left handed flamenco guitarists (Apr. 13 2015 18:38:28)

quote:

The joke is exactly the huge gap between what I actually write and what you understand.


I suggest you re-read the entire "Musical Knowledge" thread which you started, as well as your posts on this thread, and it will become evident what your original thoughts were, and are, about those who have no knowledge of music theory. It is clear that you are now trying to pass this attitude off as a "joke." But what you are now calling a "joke" is right in line with the thoughts you expressed in the "Musical Knowledge" thread.

Why you are now attempting to shift positions is known only to you. Your statement in the "Musical Knowledge" thread that guitarists are filling the "dumb ass musician role" (a direct quote) pretty well sums up everything you have posted on the topic. It is not very graceful language, but it certainly clarifies your position. Or was that a "joke" too?

Bill




Sr. Martins -> RE: Left handed flamenco guitarists (Apr. 13 2015 19:00:19)

Quote from that thread which you keep selectively mentioning:

quote:

Iam also a guitar player, a huge fan of most of the names cited and a HUGE part of my musical influences know even less about music than the names that Simon gave.


So.. this must mean that Iam calling myself a dumbass musician, right?

Even after your attempts to make that thread go your way by rephrasing my intentions, people seemed to have absolutely no problem understanding the situation presented, you're the only one who keeps reading offenses there.




El Kiko -> RE: Left handed flamenco guitarists (Apr. 13 2015 19:52:37)

flamenco police are coming soon ...



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px




Dudnote -> RE: Left handed flamenco guitarists (Apr. 13 2015 21:54:52)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

quote:

Each to his own. But this means you've also seen left handed violins. Where?


I thought you were joking with that first post, now it's hilarious. [:D]

You can easily find the info you're looking for (are you? hmm...)

Glad it amused you Rui. [:D]
OK, I'll admit going too far with the ornamentation of my first post. The stuff about jams was an embelishment. But cut away the chaff in what I wrote and the main under lying point was if a lefty is determined enough at the beginning they can play as a righty. Actually I have a colleague who is lefty and played classical guitar in music schools in Argentina for many years. I asked her today if she played left or right handed. She said when she met her first teacher she was handed a guitar and was too scared to say she was left handed. After just one or two very awkward months she'd totally adjusted and played right handed instruments ever since. She was grateful afterwards to have overcome that barrier.




Sr. Martins -> RE: Left handed flamenco guitarists (Apr. 13 2015 22:03:54)

@Dudnote

I believe that if you play "the other way" because your teacher says or because that's how it "should be", then you're being the tool to your instrument (and teacher).

In the end I think that any instrument's main purpose is to be... an instrument, a tool... something that adapts to your needs (register, timbre, weight, dimensions, looks, etc) and not the other way around.




ToddK -> RE: Left handed flamenco guitarists (Apr. 14 2015 2:33:02)

I'm with Dudnote, Lefty's are completely inferior. Hate 'em..




rombsix -> RE: Left handed flamenco guitarists (Apr. 14 2015 3:13:13)

quote:

Can you show me if there are some?






Dudnote -> RE: Left handed flamenco guitarists (Apr. 14 2015 3:56:47)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ToddK
I'm with Dudnote, Lefty's are completely inferior. Hate 'em..

lol!!! [:D]

Take any basic juggling book and on page 1 or 2 it's gonna say something like "you'll find one of your hands will get this trick quicker than the other so it's really important to pay extra attention to the weaker hand to get it to the same level of ability".

Work on any motor skill long enough and in the right way you can get pretty close to completely masterring it. So if you're crazy enough to want to go through the process to learn flamenco guitar what's a few extra weeks at the beginning to get one hand to feel as natural as the other at holding a chord and strumming? I think teachers / parents are just giving in to kids not wanting to do it the "right" way. But they are denying those kids the joy of walking into a guitar store and trying out 15 different guitars.

[sm=Smiley Guitar.gif][sm=Smiley Guitar.gif][sm=Smiley Guitar.gif][sm=Smiley Guitar.gif][sm=Smiley Guitar.gif][sm=Smiley Guitar.gif][sm=Smiley Guitar.gif][sm=Smiley Guitar.gif][sm=Smiley Guitar.gif][sm=Smiley Guitar.gif][sm=Smiley Guitar.gif][sm=Smiley Guitar.gif]
vs.
[sm=Smiley Guitar.gif]

which looks more fun?

It's like, imagine a future when designer babies are no longer controversial and your baby designer says to you "would you like a kid with a nut allergy? I can get one of those to you two or three weeks faster". Are you really gonna make your kid go through a life of "Great birthday cake, oh it's got nuts in it" [&:]

@Rui nobody "needs" a nut allergy.




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