RE: Musical Knowledge (Full Version)

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Sr. Martins -> RE: Musical Knowledge (Apr. 13 2015 0:54:42)

quote:

I have engaged in the debate


No, you tried to engage me into your debate... that's totally different.


I see that you ask me to do lots of things but you clearly haven't read anything from the links that I keep telling you to read. Your answers are there although it might be pointless for you to read it since you've made up your mind about this even before I created the topic.



BarkellWH -> RE: Musical Knowledge (Apr. 13 2015 1:00:54)

quote:

- What do you think are the reasons that led to the "guitar player" stereotype within musicians


The "guitar player" stereotype within musicians is a figment of your own imagination. Apparently you are the victim of a self-reinforcing feedback loop that does not allow for any objective external factors to influence your own preconceived opinion. Never let facts get in the way of your own preconceived opinion.

Bill



BarkellWH -> RE: Musical Knowledge (Apr. 13 2015 1:03:52)

quote:

I see that you ask me to do lots of things but you clearly haven't read anything from the links that I keep telling you to read.


I have read the links, and they offer no more evidence than you that the majority of guitarists are "proud" of, and "brag" about their ignorance of music theory. Again, you are the victim of your own self-reinforcing feedback loop.

Bill



Sr. Martins -> RE: Musical Knowledge (Apr. 13 2015 1:12:48)

quote:

The "guitar player" stereotype within musicians is a figment of your own imagination. Apparently you are the victim of a self-reinforcing feedback loop that does not allow for any objective external factors to influence your own preconceived opinion. Never let facts get in the way of your own preconceived opinion.


That's precisely the reason why I said you wouldn't understand me and that it was pointless to discuss it with you.

You say that there's no "guitar player" stereotype and don't agree with my premises... then why do you keep going at it? Just let it go.


I didn't say the links were about guitar players bragging about nothing but I see a pattern here... guitar players bragging is all you're looking for, you completely disregard everything else (which is what really matters). In fact the first link bashes guitarists quite a bit, maybe you didn't read well.


If you which to proceed, at least make an effort to read again what the topic is and try to stay within it.


The main topics still are:

- What do you think are the reasons that led to the "guitar player" stereotype within musicians

- What other arts do you know where you can find a significant amount of people stating that "learning about art is bad for your creativity" and refuse to study it/know more about it?

edit:

...and here's the last meaningful post that I wrote, kind of summing up what has been said and adding another hypothesis...

quote:

Another thing besides what has already been mentioned about the guitar (popularity, the characteristics of the genres to which it is strongly linked, "pattern friendly", etc), I think we could add the rockstar effect to it.

Rock guitarists became pop culture icons (anyone heard of Slash?) and are "exploited" as such through the media, which means that they reach a wide audience.. and what they say does too! Adding up to this we have games like Guitar Hero where, as you can guess, it's all about rock bands...and you play as a rock guitarist, who 95% of the time is someone who says "I just place my fingers where they want to go". (Oh, and the game itself is like animated tabs where you press some colored buttons or something...)

Well, my point here is... maybe culture itself (and the industry) play a big role into the "guitar player mentality" as a stereotype



BarkellWH -> RE: Musical Knowledge (Apr. 13 2015 1:26:15)

quote:

I didn't say the links were about guitar players bragging about nothing but I see a pattern here... guitar players bragging is all you're looking for,


...because that was your original observation, that guitar players are "proud" of, and "bragging" about their lack of musical knowledge. You are caught in a web of your own making, Sr. Martins.

This is my last comment on your self-reinforcing feedback loopiness.

Bill



Sr. Martins -> RE: Musical Knowledge (Apr. 13 2015 1:51:07)

quote:

...because that was your original observation, that guitar players are "proud" of, and "bragging" about their lack of musical knowledge. You are caught in a web of your own making, Sr. Martins.


The large majority of guitar players I've met personally from 2004 through 2010 would certainly be in that category.

The large majority of guitarists who have some popularity (mainly in pop/rock/metal) will also act like divas (check youtube) who were touched by god and feel superior by not knowing crap about music... well, unless "Classical Today Magazine" is your pop media.

Please, disagree all you want but don't ask for more evidence, you know you won't be satisfied with anything and that's also part of the reason why I don't bother.


quote:

This is my last comment on your self-reinforcing feedback loopiness.


Thanks, let's keep it at that.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Musical Knowledge (Apr. 13 2015 3:53:08)

There is a subset of guitarists who shun any kind of organized or formal learning about music or their instrument. Thus the joke: "Q: do you read music? A: not enuff to hurt my playin'". or "Q: how do you get a guitarist to stop playing? A: put sheet music in front of him". They seem to feel that theory or method is cheating or counterproductive to authentic expression. The attitude is or was associated with rock. Of course, the good players knew plenty, but they copped it from wearing out records, not sheet music, modal studies, or god forbid, TAB. Probably a good deal of unfortunates misinterpreted this aural style of learning for _no_ learning, and adopted its superficial features but neglected to do the sweat labor at the heart of musicianship!



Sr. Martins -> RE: Musical Knowledge (Apr. 13 2015 6:25:09)

Thankfully there is a few people who actually read before making assumptions and start getting all defensive about things that weren't even mentioned.

Those jokes are very popular but there are many more. I agree that it's mainly about rock guitar players but don't you feel that it is more widespread nowadays (hence the stereotype)?


Personally I don't remember playing with any musician who didn't know at least about chords and where to find the notes on their instruments. Guitar players seem to be the only species who's faces glow with pride when saying "F sharp minor? What is that, some alien device? I dont know any of that, I play what I feel"...which in turn leads to longer practice sessions and people getting pissed at babysitting the guy.



Ruphus -> RE: Musical Knowledge (Apr. 13 2015 10:04:28)

I would assume that players who reveal to not knowing how to read notes confess a lack. I havn´t met any who´d be really proud of not knowing, though they might be joking about it.

And regarding the idea of theoretical knowledge possibly getting in the way: I believe that it can happen.
(I used to be acquainted with conservatory guitarists who were admiring my weird improvisations. Obviously just because they would had not dared to spontaneously get cracking, and lesser even in unconventional ways.)

Miguel,

You have not seen good tablatur yet.
I own a copy of a book with sheet music in notation and tablatur for classical etudes and its tab writing obviously conveys every bit of musical information.

Ruphus



Sr. Martins -> RE: Musical Knowledge (Apr. 13 2015 10:39:28)

When mistaken as rules, theory can and will do more harm than good.

It is intended to bring awareness to the things we hear and help breaking them down. Very useful to boost your creativity but at it's basic core it is also the language musicians use to communicate ideas regarding sound.


I would really like to know if there are other arts where we can find a significant amount of people who say that it's better not to study in order to be more creative.



Leñador -> RE: Musical Knowledge (Apr. 13 2015 13:44:35)

At what point does one "know theory"? I know most scales, I can build chords, and read staff notation but some of the threads here go over my head completely. I feel like if a non-musician asked I'd say "sure, I know some theory" but if a serious musician asked if say "not really".



minorthang -> RE: Musical Knowledge (Apr. 13 2015 13:46:56)

quote:

When mistaken as rules,


i think miles davis said learn and forget - although not just guitar i know a lot of instrumentalists(in jazz) that have woodshed for years in order freely express them sleeves , but is anyone more free than django ? also i think say young artists going through university have to go through learning as well but maybe most of them have a certain natural ability ?? same with some friends who do photography they seem to just study as they wish .

people at different levels , people different expectations , and when it comes to guitar so many different aims and ideas, and i guess a lot of guitar in the 20th cent was mainly an Aural tradion from Rev gary davis too slash et al



Sr. Martins -> RE: Musical Knowledge (Apr. 13 2015 15:20:08)

Maybe not in a formal way but Django knew theory (as in "done with a specific musical intention" instead of "random noodling through shapes"), his music is full of concepts that you can find on Bach and Chopin for example.

Lenny, music theory is very basic really. The training and the ideas you can represent with it, that is endless.


The most common misconceptions I find about music theory among guitar players are:

- the "it kills creativity / it is all in the fingers" talk

- music theory = staff notation

- assuming that theoretical concepts (common practice period) are universal thus ending up thinking "Why do I need this conservatory-classical-counterpoint stuff? The music I like doesn't have any of this!". If you want to learn Rock, then learn about Rock... not Classical.



El Kiko -> RE: Musical Knowledge (Apr. 13 2015 16:06:33)

someone may have the time to read this .. it has some interesting observations from time to time ...


http://www.danjacobwallace.com/2010/01/music-theory-it-wont-kill-your-music/



Sr. Martins -> RE: Musical Knowledge (Apr. 13 2015 16:08:48)

quote:

someone may have the time to read this .. it has some interesting observations from time to time ...


I was about to post that lol


The comments are good too. I've posted two links before, you might like them (1st one about guitar players, 2nd about musical knowledge in general).



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Musical Knowledge (Apr. 13 2015 16:58:45)

There are multiple ways to get to where you want to be. But IMO, eventually you have to build a musical map in your head and it is aural.

There are also multiple ways of sucking and being a beginner. I associate TAB with lazy players who don't want to put in any time to understand music, either formally or informally (by ear). Of course, that's a gross generalization and stereotype, and who knows how useful it is. Yet it's hard to find a musical youtube video where some slacker isn't putting up his email and begging for TABs. Even the simplest of music. Someone driven to learn music would easily figure it out by listening and looking at the fingers--it's right in front of you!! The guys in the old days would bust their butts over cheap record players for hours and hours--the aural skills and problem-solving abilities thus earned simply can't be bought!



Sr. Martins -> RE: Musical Knowledge (Apr. 13 2015 17:02:48)

The most curious thing about the "I don't know a thing about music, I play what I feel/imagine" guitar player talk is that it seems to be an impossible task to make them see that what they say they do by not studying is exactly what they are NOT DOING and the reason why people bust their asses learning and practicing/training (the ear mostly).

I think I've never succeeded at making a fellow guitar player see the ENORMOUS difference between what they do (noodling) and what they think they do (play what they imagine).


Failing at this there's really no point on going further onto "why some knowledge might be useful to you".



Sr. Martins -> RE: Musical Knowledge (Apr. 13 2015 17:09:32)

quote:

But IMO, eventually you have to build a musical map in your head and it is aural.


Miguel, that's exactly what everyone who knows theory (besides looking at sheet music and executing) and has interest in creating and exploring musical ideas tries to pass on to people who refuse to know about it.

It's a musical map! Doesn't matter if you call it "yellow", "rock feeling note" or "minor 3rd" but since it deals mostly with distances between pitches and we have already assigned numbers... well, why not go with it? It's not only easier for you to organize your ideas but also to instantly recognize and understand ideas from other people or musical genres.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Musical Knowledge (Apr. 13 2015 17:11:16)

Yes, it would be nice if everyone spoke the same language, but...



Ricardo -> RE: Musical Knowledge (Apr. 13 2015 20:38:03)

The reasons are obvious...guitar magazines. When I was a kid it was "cool" to know some theory about a tune, even a rock tune. And along come a couple of "cool nerds" along lines of Holdsworth,Zappa, Vai....and shredders that new their **** post malmsteen...gilbert, macalpine, moore, becker...etc. Even guys like Vanhalen admitted to classical piano lessons and such, and looked up to guys like holdsworth....even as a kid I got to read about guys like mclauhlin and dimeola who while quite cerebral and nerdy with the "theory", could play with devistating power. It was NEVER about record sales.

But as time pressed on, I think it got to Becker transcribing his own piece "air" cuz it was just too advanced for the magazine genre to deal with...that was the end of it and along came the 180 degree approach ushered in by "cool to be dumb" bands like Nirvana...and a guitar column by dimebag "look dudes symmetrical patterns are cool"...and it was all over, overnight practically. It was no longer "cool" to have knowledge of music, eclectic tastes, nor technical speed and prowess. And it has gone pretty much downhill ever since. Guitar magazines had potential to educate the masses, and took the fanzine papperiazzi approach to featuring artists.

Outside of the guitar world itself, again I point to the fact the guitar is used for many different genres, and the genres have their own disciplines for mastery. It is not that there need to be excuses for not understanding the circle of 5ths (which is all that theory knowledge is after all), but there are other priorities for a specific genre...such as rhythm, groove, song form, swing, for flamenco we have emphasis on accompaniment of cante/baile etc. It evolves to a place where, if the discipline calls for it you WILL have readers...such as classical guitar, but put a chart in front of a classical guy and he will be lost...like wise a great chart reading session improvisation guy might have difficulty with Bach suite sight reading session...it happens in piano land too I have seen it. One guy can sight read beethoven with no mistake, but cant deal with a jazz chart and comp chords and improvise...but the jazz pianist can read a chart of a tune he never heard and do a decent solo to boot, but can really struggle with Bach. So which player is "failing" with his knowledge of theory and music? Or is there no "failure" but just a different discipline going on?

Ricardo



El Kiko -> RE: Musical Knowledge (Apr. 13 2015 21:00:56)

well maybe ..i dont agree with the last bit about great readers getting lost on Bach pieces . session people read everything ... almost literally ., I used to ..
i still have stuff .. probably .. flute , trumpet , bass .. piano ..violin .. classical , country banjo .. anything really you name it ..
and lots of it .. cos once youve done it once , your not sight reading anymore .. memory kicks in from time to time ..

If a fly lands on the paper , I'll play it on the way past ....[:D]


i had a teacher once that had a famous story of a young John Mclauglin knocking on his door .. to learn music .. this was in Newcastle ..
At the time John played well and was into the Big Bill Broonzy style ..
so what does he want to learn ...

Well all the chords and all the theory .. was the reply.....

Last time I met John I talked to him about this part of his life .. that was a long time ago now ..
Sorry for the name dropp ...



Sr. Martins -> RE: Musical Knowledge (Apr. 13 2015 21:02:40)

Well.. guitar magazines didn't even come to my mind. I might have bought one... in the last 15 years but I remember that Dimebag symetrical one (and Wild Stringdom from Petrucci bu that was actually cool) [:D]

Now that you mentioned Nirvana and thinking a bit about how the guitar has always been the "rebelious" instrument even to the classical world, it reminds me of the huge amount of people who start playing guitar for reasons that are way beyond music...


It kinda makes sense that being one of the most popular instruments for many reasons and for many genres it ends up attracting all kinds of people and since there are so many guitarists out there, odds are that most of them won't be even interested in being "proper musicians"... which leads us to the stereotypes that guitarists usually fall into (or are victim of).



If anyone feels compelled to write nonsense about dark meanings behind the expression "proper musicians", please abstain from writing anything. We're doing ok here without conspiracy theories.



Sr. Martins -> RE: Musical Knowledge (Apr. 13 2015 21:06:11)

@Ricardo
@El Kiko

Would you guys add/subtract anything to this list, based on your personal experience?

quote:

The most common misconceptions I find about music theory among guitar players are:

- the "it kills creativity / it is all in the fingers" talk

- music theory = staff notation

- assuming that theoretical concepts (common practice period) are universal thus ending up thinking "Why do I need this conservatory-classical-counterpoint stuff? The music I like doesn't have any of this!". If you want to learn Rock, then learn about Rock... not Classical.




oh... and maybe this too. [:D]

quote:

The most curious thing about the "I don't know a thing about music, I play what I feel/imagine" guitar player talk is that it seems to be an impossible task to make them see that what they say they do by not studying is exactly what they are NOT DOING and the reason why people bust their asses learning and practicing/training (the ear mostly).

I think I've never succeeded at making a fellow guitar player see the ENORMOUS difference between what they do (noodling) and what they think they do (play what they imagine).


Failing at this there's really no point on going further onto "why some knowledge might be useful to you".



Ricardo -> RE: Musical Knowledge (Apr. 13 2015 21:19:31)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

@Ricardo
@El Kiko

Would you guys add/subtract anything to this list, based on your personal experience?

quote:

The most common misconceptions I find about music theory among guitar players are:

- the "it kills creativity / it is all in the fingers" talk

- music theory = staff notation

- assuming that theoretical concepts (common practice period) are universal thus ending up thinking "Why do I need this conservatory-classical-counterpoint stuff? The music I like doesn't have any of this!". If you want to learn Rock, then learn about Rock... not Classical.




oh... and maybe this too. [:D]

quote:

The most curious thing about the "I don't know a thing about music, I play what I feel/imagine" guitar player talk is that it seems to be an impossible task to make them see that what they say they do by not studying is exactly what they are NOT DOING and the reason why people bust their asses learning and practicing/training (the ear mostly).

I think I've never succeeded at making a fellow guitar player see the ENORMOUS difference between what they do (noodling) and what they think they do (play what they imagine).


Failing at this there's really no point on going further onto "why some knowledge might be useful to you".



I would say these are normal cliches that go along the lines of "too many notes" critiques and such (Amadeus movie), technique vs feel BS, or when trying to teach some one and saying "you just got to feel it" or "you gotta be born with it" type things. It is not unique to guitar world. Drummers get it bad too, and they often don't read music or care about theory, but in the end know more about music than...actual musicians. [:D] (that's an old cliche joke too)



Sr. Martins -> RE: Musical Knowledge (Apr. 13 2015 21:46:07)

Just another hypothesis that I don't think we've discussed yet...


At least here in Portugal, almost every household has a guitar. Lots of 50€ chinese classicals bought at the supermarket, something by "Stagg", "Lucida" or names like that.


This means there is a huge chance that people already have a guitar at home since they were born and very likely will learn at least how to strum a few chords on it... next thing you know, you're in a band!



Now think of harps/cellos/tubas and etc... you don't find any of this stuff at the supermarket for 50€ and if you decide to buy one, chances are you're doing it because you've already signed up for lessons.



BarkellWH -> RE: Musical Knowledge (Apr. 13 2015 22:02:16)

quote:

This means there is a huge chance that people already have a guitar at home since they were born and very likely will learn at least how to strum a few chords on it... next thing you know you're in a band.

Now think of harps/cellos/tubas and etc... you don't find any of this stuff at the supermarket for 50€ and if you decide to buy one, chances are you're doing it because you've already signed up for lessons.


The guitar is the most popular instrument by far, and because of its popularity and high volume of sales it can be made and sold at a relatively low cost. One can learn the rudiments of playing the guitar fairly easily without lessons, although lessons help.

Harps and cellos, on the other hand (I cannot think of anyone who would want to play a tuba unless he were in a high school marching band) are not sold in high volume and are more high-end instruments, and must be in order to earn a builder's profit. I suspect they would be very difficult to learn without lessons, and your buddy down the street probably does not own one and cannot show you how to play. So if you want to learn to play a harp or a cello you are almost obligated to take lessons.

Bill



Sr. Martins -> RE: Musical Knowledge (Apr. 13 2015 23:24:30)

Back to the finding that sparked my interest to merge the topics I asked your opinions on...

It really amazes me to find that EDM (electronic dance music) folks have become so open minded about theory. Many (probably the majority) don't even deal with sheet music at all but they use the piano roll and read the intervals and chords like a jazz guy would do.

Even though it remains a simplistic genre when it comes to melodic/harmonic content, they care about knowing what's the key signature and what choices they have to harmonize beyond simple triads.

The last time I had checked, the only theoretical device they would dare to use was some sort of a chart with a dumbed down circle of fifths that would depict things as "If you're using loops labeled as Emajor, you can also put there stuff labeled as Gmin".



Ricardo -> RE: Musical Knowledge (Apr. 14 2015 2:15:19)

regarding EDM "artists" and their odd interest in music theory, I really really really really wish I cared. [8|]



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Musical Knowledge (Apr. 14 2015 4:33:01)

I remember that Dimebag article... if it's the same one, it must have come out sometime around 90-92 or so. Around the same time period, "Smells Like Teen Spirit" was transcribed by the same magazine.



Leñador -> RE: Musical Knowledge (Apr. 14 2015 5:10:30)

Dime makes it cry.
http://youtu.be/elYStmAaW2k
[;)]



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