just another Conde :) (Full Version)

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tk -> just another Conde :) (Feb. 4 2015 16:13:33)

For those interested....


http://www.flamencoguitarsforsale.net/es/guitarras-flamencas/usadas/conde-80-paco-lucia.html



Morante -> RE: just another Conde :) (Feb. 4 2015 17:21:28)

Must be worth 3 or 4000 euros, if in good condition.



tk -> RE: just another Conde :) (Feb. 4 2015 17:40:44)

owned by Paco and 4,000 Euros? I wish :) but I doubt...



tele -> RE: just another Conde :) (Feb. 5 2015 11:23:33)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

Must be worth 3 or 4000 euros, if in good condition.


What's up with all these smart remarks.

[8|]



Mark2 -> RE: just another Conde :) (Feb. 5 2015 17:10:57)

Non famous one for sale now.......


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Conde-Hermanos-Flamenco-Guitar-1998-Media-Luna/271734965312?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D28772%26meid%3D28e5817d7021455dbe16e62ec31867fa%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D2%26sd%3D271730705519



keith -> RE: just another Conde :) (Feb. 5 2015 17:24:53)

interesting issues: 1. the letters of proof to be delivered at the time of the sale and not before. usually such letters are displayed before the sale. one should not have to buy a product to see if the product is legit (oops, obamacare was sold in this fashion). 2. the nut was moved a few millimeters forward--was this done for paco or after paco? if this move, which appears to be 3mm or so, corrected intonation how was this accomplished given the change in scale length without movement of frets--and what does this say about the original length? were the conde boys that far off? 3. the tuners look like inexpensive chinese type. i could be wrong but if not were they replaced for paco or after paco? i would imagine such a guitar would have had fusteros.



Ricardo -> RE: just another Conde :) (Feb. 5 2015 18:20:51)

I am pretty familiar with several guitars paco has appered with, either in photos or on stage, and never saw this guitar in my life. Could be his wife is unloaded guitas in his collection (since he is deceased, I would expect my wife to do the same [:D]), and the first to go are gonna be ones family members will admit he did not use often or hold very valuable. I think if this is the true case, his more obvious used instruments should go first so show it's legit. For example, the Pepe Romero he just got before he died, the new guitar (dont' know the name) on his Canciones Andaluza album, the lester Devoe, etc...unless his main guitars are going to a museum or something. I heard they will make a Paco museum somewhere.

Ricardo



orsonw -> RE: just another Conde :) (Feb. 5 2015 19:01:05)

quote:

Could be his wife is unloaded guitas in his collection


Paco de Lucia already let go of this particular guitar 23 years ago, it's Antonio Sanchez who's selling it now. I would be interested to know which guitars Paco de Lucia had in his collection that he valued the highest. Maybe we'll see them in a museum one day.

From the solera website
quote:

"has been part of the personal collection of the master, occasionally using it in his concerts since it was given to him in the year 1980, until 1992, when the maestro decided to give the guitar to his brother Antonio Sánchez Gómez. After the death of Paco de Lucia and later his brother Antonio, the guitar is inherited by the son of Antonio: Antonio Sánchez Palomo"



Anders Eliasson -> RE: just another Conde :) (Feb. 6 2015 7:53:26)

Maybe PDL gave it away because he didnt like the headstock?[sm=Smiley Guitar.gif]
dinglingdong



Anders Eliasson -> RE: just another Conde :) (Feb. 6 2015 8:04:31)

Or maybe PDL is the new Elvis? Everything he looked at will turn out to be gold, but it it wont be revealed untill the day of payment.[sm=Smiley Guitar.gif]
dinglingdong



Cloth Ears -> RE: just another Conde :) (Feb. 6 2015 8:26:04)

650mm..surely this guitar was too low pulsation for Paco who preferred harder pulsation for his fast picado?



orsonw -> RE: just another Conde :) (Feb. 6 2015 9:44:13)

Cloth Ears- check the search function there's been lots of debate and explanation on why scale length is only a minor factor in pulsation.


Anders, I know it's hard to resist but please you know better![sm=Smiley Guitar.gif]



Ricardo -> RE: just another Conde :) (Feb. 6 2015 15:04:04)

quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw

quote:

Could be his wife is unloaded guitas in his collection


Paco de Lucia already let go of this particular guitar 23 years ago, it's Antonio Sanchez who's selling it now. I would be interested to know which guitars Paco de Lucia had in his collection that he valued the highest. Maybe we'll see them in a museum one day.

From the solera website
quote:

"has been part of the personal collection of the master, occasionally using it in his concerts since it was given to him in the year 1980, until 1992, when the maestro decided to give the guitar to his brother Antonio Sánchez Gómez. After the death of Paco de Lucia and later his brother Antonio, the guitar is inherited by the son of Antonio: Antonio Sánchez Palomo"




Like I said, never saw him with it once. Sounds like he picked it out for his bro (who didn't play anyway) or got it for free for him...and more likely it was Ramon that did it cuz he was all about picking up guitars cheap over there from what I understand. Several guitars I have seen in Ramon's hands I notice transfered to paco at various times.

Anyway a legit instrument I am sure, family herloom, but I doubt it was an important part of Paco's collection.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: just another Conde :) (Feb. 8 2015 18:02:51)

quote:

Anyway a legit instrument I am sure, family herloom, but I doubt it was an important part of Paco's collection.


So what makes you write this. Gut feelings or some kind of facts?



Ricardo -> RE: just another Conde :) (Feb. 8 2015 22:04:41)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

quote:

Anyway a legit instrument I am sure, family herloom, but I doubt it was an important part of Paco's collection.


So what makes you write this. Gut feelings or some kind of facts?


I stated everything above. Like with the tomatito guitar a while back the site shares a video of tomatito using a similar looking guitar as pictured implying it is the same instrument. Do you think the guitar paco is using in the video they provide is the SAME guitar for sale? I don't because for one, Cañizares was using that guitar throughout the rest of that concert (and he has Paco's in this vid, so they swapped)...but the thing for me is a subtle visual difference. The 19th fret is quite a bit longer on the guitar in the video than the one pictured for sale. I think people are just trying to cash in on anotherwise normal conde (no more than 6k for this guitar I would say). So I am just saying, if it were myself in the market, I would be happy about the story, but wouldn't consider it PACO's guitar necessarily.



tk -> RE: just another Conde :) (Feb. 9 2015 4:20:54)

quote:

I stated everything above. Like with the tomatito guitar a while back the site shares a video of tomatito using a similar looking guitar as pictured implying it is the same instrument. Do you think the guitar paco is using in the video they provide is the SAME guitar for sale? I don't because for one, Cañizares was using that guitar throughout the rest of that concert (and he has Paco's in this vid, so they swapped)...but the thing for me is a subtle visual difference. The 19th fret is quite a bit longer on the guitar in the video than the one pictured for sale. I think people are just trying to cash in on anotherwise normal conde (no more than 6k for this guitar I would say). So I am just saying, if it were myself in the market, I would be happy about the story, but wouldn't consider it PACO's guitar necessarily.



So, Do you think this was Manolo's faustino as it appears in the picture?

http://www.flamencoguitarsforsale.net/es/guitarras-flamencas/galeria-vendidas/conde-72-sanlucar-us.html



Anders Eliasson -> RE: just another Conde :) (Feb. 9 2015 8:57:44)

Ricardo,
I think its best to keep speculations like these for one self. Especially when its about a guitar from Conde Hermanos. Conde guitars have a Loooooooong story that is so full of speculation, fraud and ways of doing business that are not to be considered decent. I dont think they need more. Being negative or positive.
If the seller doesnt want to give proof of the story before selling, which is very suspicious itself, then my advice is clearly: Dont believe anything. Judge the guitar as a Conde Hermanos and nothing else.



machopicasso -> RE: just another Conde :) (Feb. 9 2015 10:22:39)

quote:

Ricardo,
I think its best to keep speculations like these for one self.


But Ricardo's not merely speculating. He's claiming the 19th fret on the guitar for sale is smaller than the one in the video. That's an empirical claim, based on visual evidence, and it's either true or false. That's worth more than mere speculation.



Ricardo -> RE: just another Conde :) (Feb. 9 2015 16:33:28)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tk

quote:

I stated everything above. Like with the tomatito guitar a while back the site shares a video of tomatito using a similar looking guitar as pictured implying it is the same instrument. Do you think the guitar paco is using in the video they provide is the SAME guitar for sale? I don't because for one, Cañizares was using that guitar throughout the rest of that concert (and he has Paco's in this vid, so they swapped)...but the thing for me is a subtle visual difference. The 19th fret is quite a bit longer on the guitar in the video than the one pictured for sale. I think people are just trying to cash in on anotherwise normal conde (no more than 6k for this guitar I would say). So I am just saying, if it were myself in the market, I would be happy about the story, but wouldn't consider it PACO's guitar necessarily.



So, Do you think this was Manolo's faustino as it appears in the picture?

http://www.flamencoguitarsforsale.net/es/guitarras-flamencas/galeria-vendidas/conde-72-sanlucar-us.html


We discussed this before....at first I was sure it wasn't but then I noticed the little blurb at the end of the description that the frets were REMOVED AND REPOSITIONED...a very odd thing IMO but the close up pic shows it's true, same fingerboard. Either way the guitar in the video would have been BRAND SPANKING NEW if it be the same date as the program aired in early months of the year of birth, and further the guitar for sale, even if the same, has been serioulsy modified with that re fretting deal. But I must admit it very well COULD be as advertised. I see it sold for 12,800 E...a considerable mark up than if it had been just any old conde from that time.

Anders and I are in agreement about the Paco guitar, I would treat as any old conde from that time, BUT the real issue is if it WAS paco's guitar that he used often and owned for years, if it's value should be much higher? I think the other instruments I mentioned, the ones he was seen publicly with, could command a higher value for collectors than their normal sticker price, but these other ones paco supposedly owned but we never saw him use should not.

Ricardo



orsonw -> RE: just another Conde :) (Feb. 9 2015 18:03:06)

quote:

the frets were REMOVED AND REPOSITIONED...a very odd thing IMO but the close up pic shows it's true,


This was also the case with Conde they had from Tomatito. I have seen this guitar and the frets had clearly been moved, the best intonated guitar I have ever played.



Ricardo -> RE: just another Conde :) (Feb. 9 2015 18:05:53)

quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw

quote:

the frets were REMOVED AND REPOSITIONED...a very odd thing IMO but the close up pic shows it's true,


This was also the case with Conde they had from Tomatito. I have seen this guitar and the frets had clearly been moved, the best intonated guitar I have ever played.


In that case, the same could have been done with this suposed Paco guitar...odd thing to be going on unless it's all about the "compensation" issue (old condes never did this trick). I am not a fan of compensation but perhaps it will be a thing we will continue seeing of similar used merchandise coming out of this store?

Ricardo



orsonw -> RE: just another Conde :) (Feb. 9 2015 18:10:04)

quote:

I am not a fan of compensation but perhaps it will be a thing we will continue seeing of similar used merchandise coming out of this store?


Solera hadn't done the fret repositioning it was already like that. Maybe it was a trend amongst the top pros at one point?



tk -> RE: just another Conde :) (Feb. 9 2015 18:23:36)

First. I just want to say that I have dealt with the owners of solera in several transactions and they are very nice and honest (just my opinion based on the experience I had with them). I do trust their description of guitars. They don't hide anything and whatever guitar I have gotten from them was exactly the way they described it.

I agree with Ricardo that it is very hard to get some sort of evidence if a guitar that was never seen being played by Paco did actually belong to Paco but I also believe that he had tone of Condes and I am sure he distributed them to his relatives. I feel like those guitars are coming up one by one in the market by the relatives (now that Paco has passed).

I believe there are basically 3 MAJOR Condes that Paco has been seen with (I could be wrong):

The 70s (the one that was stolen)




Early 80s:




Mid/Late 80s and on (which was eventually refinished or something which he used until the end...)


TK



orsonw -> RE: just another Conde :) (Feb. 9 2015 21:05:03)

quote:

First. I just want to say that I have dealt with the owners of solera in several transactions and they are very nice and honest (just my opinion based on the experience I had with them). I do trust their description of guitars. They don't hide anything and whatever guitar I have gotten from them was exactly the way they described it.


My experience with Jordi at Solera is similar- honest, knowledgeable, guitar exactly as described, great customer service.



Morante -> RE: just another Conde :) (Feb. 9 2015 22:04:17)

Una Strat del Hendrix? Yo lo compro[:D]



Ricardo -> RE: just another Conde :) (Feb. 10 2015 0:55:54)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tk

First. I just want to say that I have dealt with the owners of solera in several transactions and they are very nice and honest (just my opinion based on the experience I had with them). I do trust their description of guitars. They don't hide anything and whatever guitar I have gotten from them was exactly the way they described it.

I agree with Ricardo that it is very hard to get some sort of evidence if a guitar that was never seen being played by Paco did actually belong to Paco but I also believe that he had tone of Condes and I am sure he distributed them to his relatives. I feel like those guitars are coming up one by one in the market by the relatives (now that Paco has passed).

I believe there are basically 3 MAJOR Condes that Paco has been seen with (I could be wrong):

The 70s (the one that was stolen)




Early 80s:




Mid/Late 80s and on (which was eventually refinished or something which he used until the end...)


TK


The guitar that was stolen Yep, 1971 or so to 1979, his favorite. The one with Sanlucar (sevillanas) is from the 60s, a different guitar than the one stolen in 1979, but was the exact same guitar used to play Zapateado (rito y geografia) and when he was super young on the boat. (you can tell by some details such as the tie block rosette etc). Glad he kept that baby in his collection sounds great....after his guitar was stolen he used one with guitar trio that I think was his brothers based on rosette details (1979-1982)...lots of pics and vids with trio with that guitar.

The one he has with mclaughlin there and in Carmen movie is the SAME EXACT GUITAR (looks like the one he used in 1980 but it is a different rosette and back/sides) as the one painted red below, and later refinished several more times till his final days. (1982-2014). Now THAT one and the the one in the sanlucar video are both serious collectors items that if they pop up on this site, even I will try to get a loan to get either. THe stolen one? just think, it's out there somewhere!

Ricardo



RobJe -> RE: just another Conde :) (Feb. 10 2015 18:28:44)

negras, negras - always negras.
What about the nice blancas he played in earlier days even into the 70s?



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