Question on Moraito Siguirillas master class (Full Version)

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jmb -> Question on Moraito Siguirillas master class (Jan. 31 2015 14:09:42)

Hi! I have been watching this video of Moraito in Youtube about siguirillas.



In the 2:57 he starts explaining other way of feel siguirillas.

Could somedody clarify this rhythm on the usual rhythm?.

Thanks in advance.



Ricardo -> RE: Question on Moraito Siguirillas master class (Jan. 31 2015 19:01:53)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmb

Hi! I have been watching this video of Moraito in Youtube about siguirillas.



In the 2:57 he starts explaining other way of feel siguirillas.

Could somedody clarify this rhythm on the usual rhythm?.

Thanks in advance.



He is just saying he likes to play very elastically....and it's personal. It is more typical to play metronomically for dance only, not for cante solo. He clarifies that it USED to be metronomic but quite fast in the old days when they didn't use a guitar to accompany. The guitar slowed it down then made it more "libre". The dance returns to the metronomic idea but very slow, and of course speeding up at the end. for the record his son diego has returned modern interpretations back to the old fast style, but simply with guitar added. Quite a "modern" guitar style at that. Lets call it "neoclassical" siguiryia.



jmb -> RE: Question on Moraito Siguirillas master class (Jan. 31 2015 20:33:21)

Thanks a lot Ricardo.

Could you explain the differences on old style on a 12 beat patern?. Couse, I guess that acents are different.

I mean, the 'acompmañamiento para el baile' is the 'acedemic':

X x X x X x x X x x X x. where shifts are the accents.

But I can't understand totally the 'old' patern 'con el que se cantaba en la barra del bar'. Is it changed respecting the pattern above as it occurs with the different rhythms in bulerias? Or is just a diferent subjacent melody?



Ricardo -> RE: Question on Moraito Siguirillas master class (Feb. 2 2015 13:48:34)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmb

Thanks a lot Ricardo.

Could you explain the differences on old style on a 12 beat patern?. Couse, I guess that acents are different.

I mean, the 'acompmañamiento para el baile' is the 'acedemic':

X x X x X x x X x x X x. where shifts are the accents.

But I can't understand totally the 'old' patern 'con el que se cantaba en la barra del bar'. Is it changed respecting the pattern above as it occurs with the different rhythms in bulerias? Or is just a diferent subjacent melody?



There is no real difference the accents remain the same...BUT... because of the very fast tempo the MIDDLE accent (the one where you do a Bb chord or G minor, or when you hold it as the start after a llamada break in the cante) starts to take on the illusion of being the down beat. But one must be careful not to get CROSSED, into the world of buleria feeling. The first two accents are still the Cabeza of the phrase, but you don't need to hear them expressed. Like this:

BRUUUUM....dada dum, di di dum....(rest, rest) BRRRUUUM....dada dum, di di dum....(rest rest etc)
the accents starting from count 3 like this:
Xxx,Xxx,Xx, Xx, Xx....etc. or
3...&ah,4 & ah, 5 (&), (1 &, 2 &) repeat.

inside the ( ) you rest or hold the A chord....in other words forego (omit) the Dm and C chords we use for baile. Diego does a little hammer pull to maintain the pulse (for example A-Bb-A ligados on the third string) over the weakly expressed 1&2& part of the compas.

While it's important the guitarist not get a "sentido crusado", the singer can sing as he pleases. Indeed if you watch Piriñaca sing to her own palmas, she sings off of the 3 accent as a starting point....for baile slow "square" cante sings off of the 5th accent to express more clearly count 1, as the cabeza of the phrase.

Hope that makes sense!



jmb -> RE: Question on Moraito Siguirillas master class (Feb. 3 2015 9:07:27)

Thanks for the great explanation Ricardo and for the references. Really helpful.

I'll check Piriñaca's siguiriyas.



Ricardo -> RE: Question on Moraito Siguirillas master class (Feb. 3 2015 15:12:37)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmb

Thanks for the great explanation Ricardo and for the references. Really helpful.

I'll check Piriñaca's siguirillas.


Here at 5:00 or so you see her sing with her own palmas, and it's the middle accent (count 3) she starts phrases either on it, or right after it.

http://youtu.be/1yB1dTr3uA0

If you keep watching her next performance with Manuel Morao, playing much slower and marked, she often sings off of the 5th accent or right on the "one" count with her phrases....I say often because she will later just start phrases at random points in the compas as she pleases. BUt at least is a clear contrast of phrasing the melody against the compas as I described earlier.

Ricardo



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Question on Moraito Siguirillas master class (Feb. 4 2015 8:18:45)

Most singers wont accept Moraito´s style. Especially outside of Jerez. Many will give you palmas while you play your falsetas and then this elastic style doesnt work and it can be difficult to suddenly play straight something you are used to play elastic . So my advice is to learn to play with compás as well. Or you can tell the singers to stop making palmas when you play falesetas. The problem is that they often forget it..... (singers are difficult to control but they like to control players )[8D]

What Moraito says in this video where he teaches accompany of siguiriyas together with Terremoto hijo, is to play straight while they sing and then you can be more free in your falsetas. A lot of siguiriyas in older solo flamenco was very free or elastic. Listen to Sabicas wonderfull siguiriya on El rey del flamenco (I think) he accelerates and decelerates all the time and IMHO, thats what this elastic thing is all about and not just in siguiriyas. But it does that some Sabicas falsetas dont work if you play with singers giving you palmas



jmb -> RE: Question on Moraito Siguirillas master class (Feb. 4 2015 8:44:12)

Hi Anders.

I know. I love the siguiriyas with this elastic style. IMO is more expressive and of course it is really complicate.

When I hear danced siguirillas perfectly 'cuadradas' I always feel that something has been lost respecting this kind of siguirillas. It might be because danced siguiriyas is an invention of a theorist dancer from Valladolid and ... and it is obvious! [:)] jaja!.



koenie17 -> RE: Question on Moraito Siguirillas master class (Feb. 4 2015 9:39:37)

I really like it when the Siguiriyas are more elastic, gives the cante room to breathe.
I also prefer a bit of this elastic(ness?) in Solea, especially when coming back to the F chord(7,8,9,10). Of course we should learn everything in perfect compas when practising. But when with a singer I think one should be able to slow it down(tirar patras). Ofcourse this depends on who´s singing [:D]



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