picado technique (Full Version)

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12850bd -> picado technique (Dec. 16 2014 21:53:45)

I was watching a video on you tube by terry flemming on picado and he said that you should always feel two strings. Eg if you are playing on string 1 your flesh should be touching string 2 at the same time. That way you are always grounded. This makes good sense but is this what you all do...be good to hear opinions on this.



Johnc -> RE: picado technique (Dec. 16 2014 22:19:45)

Hi
Sometimes the search function doesn't always return what you expect, but doing a search on "picado technique" doesn't return this thread, but lots of other's, one of which is also called picado technique, discussing this very same person/videos... And Not favourably!

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=215971&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=picado%2Ctechnique&tmode=&smode=&s=#215971


John



Ricardo -> RE: picado technique (Dec. 17 2014 2:19:13)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 12850bd

I was watching a video on you tube by terry flemming on picado and he said that you should always feel two strings. Eg if you are playing on string 1 your flesh should be touching string 2 at the same time. That way you are always grounded. This makes good sense but is this what you all do...be good to hear opinions on this.


Yes, but what is more important is the musical effect of this which is stacato notes caused by very quick planting...so the fingers are "in the air" for the shortest time possible, which economizes the motion at the same time producing the fullest tone.

Ricardo



hamia -> RE: picado technique (Dec. 18 2014 16:57:18)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 12850bd

I was watching a video on you tube by terry flemming on picado and he said that you should always feel two strings. Eg if you are playing on string 1 your flesh should be touching string 2 at the same time. That way you are always grounded. This makes good sense but is this what you all do...be good to hear opinions on this.


I watched his video and it's full of misinformation - or at least not giving reasonable alternatives. He recommends to press down on the string to get volume. This isn't necessary and is inefficient. Better to pull the string parallel to the top (there will of course be some downward motion too). He also recommends powering from the large knuckle. Again, not the only way - it's possible to provide a lot of power from the middle knuckle.



ToddK -> RE: picado technique (Dec. 18 2014 17:15:47)

quote:

I watched his video and it's full of misinformation - or at least not giving reasonable alternatives. He recommends to press down on the string to get volume. This isn't necessary and is inefficient. Better to pull the string parallel to the top (there will of course be some downward motion too). He also recommends powering from the large knuckle. Again, not the only way - it's possible to provide a lot of power from the middle knuckle.


Wrong wrong wrong..



hamia -> RE: picado technique (Dec. 18 2014 19:29:52)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ToddK

quote:

I watched his video and it's full of misinformation - or at least not giving reasonable alternatives. He recommends to press down on the string to get volume. This isn't necessary and is inefficient. Better to pull the string parallel to the top (there will of course be some downward motion too). He also recommends powering from the large knuckle. Again, not the only way - it's possible to provide a lot of power from the middle knuckle.


Wrong wrong wrong..


Where am I wrong? Pressing down on the string is moving the finger in the wrong direction for efficient movement. It's true that the sound waves vibrate between top and back, and it's also true that pressing the string down will give a bigger component of force to the top in this direction. But it's also true that moving the string sideways will transfer sufficient energy to the top. If you test out both methods you will find anyway that differences in volume are pretty small. And the middle knuckle method can pull the sting back with a great deal of force (in a relaxed way, without straining) - once you've trained the technique sufficiently.



Sr. Martins -> RE: picado technique (Dec. 18 2014 20:25:38)

Yep, you're wrong.

Just put the theory to the side and test all this that you're saying.



por medio -> RE: picado technique (Dec. 18 2014 20:35:19)

I think it's a pretty well-accepted notion that we should make a habit of pressing the strings down to the soundboard most times (I can't think of when we shouldn't) in order to make better TONE. And I don't think we would lose any efficiency over this.

And while moving the middle joint to produce picado certainly is a great way, more "conventional" may I say (and as far as I know that's the way many teachers used to teach as the only way), there seems to be a lot of people, some of them great players, who keep the fingers quite straight and move from the knuckle joints and do amazing picados.

Whatever floats your boat in this case.

However in regards to the pressing down the string, that is the way it should be taught.



hamia -> RE: picado technique (Dec. 19 2014 5:35:44)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

Yep, you're wrong.

Just put the theory to the side and test all this that you're saying.


Dude, you didn't read my post very carefully. I've already put this to the test and middle knuckle pulling the strings sideways works most excellently!

What might be lost in the way of volume is insignificant since the middle knuckle strength is immense (comes from tendon in upper arm) and can compensate.

Pushing down on the string is easier done with straight fingers. Lots of good players do this so it can't be a bad way.

But not the only way - or even the best.



orsonw -> RE: picado technique (Dec. 19 2014 7:39:34)

quote:

Pushing down on the string is easier done with straight fingers. Lots of good players do this so it can't be a bad way.

But not the only way - or even the best.


You can play from the big knuckle and push down on the string with bent fingers too, this is what many good picado players do e.g Paco de Lucia, Antonio Rey etc..

But as you say there is not only one way to do picado. I am not familiar with the method using the middle knuckle and pulling sideways. Please could you post a youtube video of someone (or yourself maybe) playing at a high level with this method?



jmb -> RE: picado technique (Dec. 19 2014 10:37:58)

This is like the thumb. One thing is the theory of the position of the hand. And other thing when you want to apply the same exact pattern in people with very different curvatures and flexibility.

There are recordings with a camera showing the the hands of many great guitarrists as you will see differences. Try to learn from several teachers and professionals. Fortunately, flamenco has several schools. Even you will find differences in the same performace.

Sabicas
Paco de Lucía
Tomatito

Ricardo's post has the main objective.



hamia -> RE: picado technique (Dec. 19 2014 15:07:42)

quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw

quote:

Pushing down on the string is easier done with straight fingers. Lots of good players do this so it can't be a bad way.

But not the only way - or even the best.


You can play from the big knuckle and push down on the string with bent fingers too, this is what many good picado players do e.g Paco de Lucia, Antonio Rey etc..

But as you say there is not only one way to do picado. I am not familiar with the method using the middle knuckle and pulling sideways. Please could you post a youtube video of someone (or yourself maybe) playing at a high level with this method?


Any video by PdL will serve your purpose.

One day I hope to post a video to enlighten the masses.



Sr. Martins -> RE: picado technique (Dec. 19 2014 15:28:04)

quote:

Any video by PdL will serve your purpose.

One day I hope to post a video to enlighten the masses.



Are you saying that the traditional picado is óbsólete?

I think you can't post your bidéos here anymore.



ToddK -> RE: picado technique (Dec. 19 2014 16:37:16)

quote:

One day I hope to post a video to enlighten the masses.


I'd love to see a video of you walking while bending only at the knee, with
no hip joint involved.



hamia -> RE: picado technique (Dec. 19 2014 17:24:11)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ToddK

quote:

One day I hope to post a video to enlighten the masses.


I'd love to see a video of you walking while bending only at the knee, with
no hip joint involved.


Well that's how I get around for the first 10 minutes of each day.

But seriously, I think GB is going to be pissed off now that you seem to be vying to replace him as Chief Purveyor of Absurd and Irrelevant Analogies!



Sr. Martins -> RE: picado technique (Dec. 19 2014 17:30:01)

Dude... just think for a second..

If picado is about rest strokes, how could you do it by playing parallel to the guitar top? You're either digging in a little or just plain pulling the strings away from the guitar.



Blondie#2 -> RE: picado technique (Dec. 19 2014 17:57:55)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hamia
Any video by PdL will serve your purpose.


Like this one maybe?




Ricardo -> RE: picado technique (Dec. 19 2014 20:23:08)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hamia

quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw

quote:

Pushing down on the string is easier done with straight fingers. Lots of good players do this so it can't be a bad way.

But not the only way - or even the best.


You can play from the big knuckle and push down on the string with bent fingers too, this is what many good picado players do e.g Paco de Lucia, Antonio Rey etc..

But as you say there is not only one way to do picado. I am not familiar with the method using the middle knuckle and pulling sideways. Please could you post a youtube video of someone (or yourself maybe) playing at a high level with this method?


Any video by PdL will serve your purpose.

One day I hope to post a video to enlighten the masses.

THis again? Paco drives from the big joint....as seen from side angles. from certain front angles the big joint seems not to move and the middle knuckle looks like it is pulling as you describe, but it is just an optical illusion. From the side view we can clearly see any and all picados driven from the big joint, with index slightly bent, middle finger severly bent, pushing the string into the top (down, not sideways as from pulling). Same deal for most other players, it is only a matter of how severly they choose to bend the fingers.

Ricardo



Richard Jernigan -> RE: picado technique (Dec. 19 2014 21:02:10)

Al Carruth wrote up some relevant experiments in his "String Theory" .pdf.

http://www.alcarruthluthier.com/Downloads/stringTheory.pdf

Plucking the string puts a kink into it which travels along the string until it hits either the nut or the bridge saddle. We would hope the kink would just be reflected at the nut, but would impart considerable energy to the saddle/bridge/soundboard at the other end of its trip along the string. The force exerted by the kink at the saddle can be resolved into two parts. Al calls them tension and transverse. Tension means the string pulling on the bridge in the direction of the string's length. Transverse means perpedicular to tension. The transverse force can be further resolved into up-and-down, and sideways.

Al's measurments show there is a lot more energy in the transverse force. The up-and-down component of the transverse component tends alternately to drive tihe soundboard down and lift it up. The sideways component tries to shear the bridge off the soundboard, while providing a little torque, since the top of the saddle is above the soundboard.

How you pluck the string regulates how much force goes into each component. Pressing down puts energy into tension and up-and down. Plucking the same amount sideways puts the same energy into tension, but puts the rest into sideways. Tension is always less enrgetic than either sideways or up-and-down. Sideways puts far less energy into the soundboard than up-and-down, if the sidways and up-and-down plucks displace the string by the same amount.

So according to the experiments, pushing the string toward the soundboard and releasing it is a far more efficient way of producing sound than puling sideways and releasing.

Of course you never pluck exactly sideways or up-and down. If you pluck straight sideways, the string has to go down some to pop off the fingernail. If you press straight down, the string has to go a little sideways to pop off the nail. But you can try both ways slowly, and notice that for the same string displacement, up-and-down is louder.

RNJ



hamia -> RE: picado technique (Dec. 20 2014 6:49:48)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan


So according to the experiments, pushing the string toward the soundboard and releasing it is a far more efficient way of producing sound than puling sideways and releasing.

Of course you never pluck exactly sideways or up-and down. If you pluck straight sideways, the string has to go down some to pop off the fingernail. If you press straight down, the string has to go a little sideways to pop off the nail. But you can try both ways slowly, and notice that for the same string displacement, up-and-down is louder.

RNJ


Yes, this seems common sense (and is what I said previously). The optimum way to transfer energy to the top is to press the string down. My point though is that a fast and staccato picado is achieved very well (from physics of hand movement, not of optimizing volume) by pulling the string parallel to the top. There will of course be some downward component as well. The compensating factor about the middle knuckle pulling the string parallel is that it's possible to pluck very hard (even at high velocity) which provides more than enough volume.



hamia -> RE: picado technique (Dec. 20 2014 6:54:40)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blondie#2

quote:

ORIGINAL: hamia
Any video by PdL will serve your purpose.


Like this one maybe?




Yes, that's exactly how I try do picado. Not yet with quite the success of Paco - but getting there. And believe it or not there is significant sideways pull on the string.



orsonw -> RE: picado technique (Dec. 20 2014 7:34:12)

quote:

Yes, that's exactly how I try do picado.


In which case we are just confused with language and the description of anatomy and movement. Many people who are able to play picado at a high level disagree with your description.

Thanks for the thread, it's always helpful to focus on picado specifics, mine could always do with improvement.



mark indigo -> RE: picado technique (Dec. 21 2014 21:25:58)

quote:

What might be lost in the way of volume is insignificant since the middle knuckle strength is immense (comes from tendon in upper arm) and can compensate.


really?

which anatomy resource are you using for that information?

are you sure you don't mean the forearm (ie. between the elbow and wrist)?

as far as I know ALL the muscles for flexion and extension of all the joints in the fingers are in the forearm



hamia -> RE: picado technique (Dec. 24 2014 8:19:37)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

What might be lost in the way of volume is insignificant since the middle knuckle strength is immense (comes from tendon in upper arm) and can compensate.


really?

which anatomy resource are you using for that information?

are you sure you don't mean the forearm (ie. between the elbow and wrist)?

as far as I know ALL the muscles for flexion and extension of all the joints in the fingers are in the forearm


Yes, you are quite correct. Forearm it is.
Thanks



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