Practicing - 'amateur' vs 'professional' ??? (Full Version)

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britguy -> Practicing - 'amateur' vs 'professional' ??? (Dec. 13 2014 14:31:47)

One of my Chinese friends sent me an interesting quote today:
" The amateur practices until he gets it right; the professional practices until he can not get it wrong. . ."

I was curious to see how many of us agreed or disagreed with this rather polarized statement? Do 'pro' players really practice differently from 'amateurs'?

Any thoughts?



edguerin -> RE: Practicing - 'amateur' vs 'professional' ??? (Dec. 13 2014 16:15:29)

quote:

The amateur practices until he gets it right

I'm afraid that means "for the rest of his life" (at least for me [:D])



ToddK -> RE: Practicing - 'amateur' vs 'professional' ??? (Dec. 13 2014 16:24:18)

Pro players are willing to do things in certain ways, and for lengths of time
that many players are not willing to do.

I teach over 30 students per week. I'm lucky if one single student actually
practices exactly what i tell him to, and how i tell him to.

99 percent of the time, they just are not willing to really bare down on
themselves.
Ironically, the students that have some talent, are usually the really lazy ones.

Hard work and determination can take you a long way.



BarkellWH -> RE: Practicing - 'amateur' vs 'professional' ??? (Dec. 13 2014 17:27:51)

quote:

Hard work and determination can take you a long way.


Perhaps the well-known quote by Thomas Edison sums it up best: "Success is ten percent inspiration and ninety percent perspiration."

Bill



Sr. Martins -> RE: Practicing - 'amateur' vs 'professional' ??? (Dec. 13 2014 17:36:29)

I think there are different roles in what can be called practice.

Some people practice to perform things right while others don't care for methodic instrumental practice and only repeat small parts until they get it right.

A concert level performer would fall into the first category while flamenco/popular music/etc players are more concerned with coming up with stuff, grabbing small ideas from other players, etc.

I think it's all a matter of context.



jshelton5040 -> RE: Practicing - 'amateur' vs 'professional' ??? (Dec. 13 2014 22:43:27)

When I was playing professionally and teaching I practiced a minimum of 6 hours a day, every day with no exceptions. That's what it took for me to be able to play some of Sabicas' works at speed. People who do this type of routine usually don't think of it as practice (at least I didn't) but most professional musicians are clinically insane anyway and I suspect I'm no exception[:D].



britguy -> RE: Practicing - 'amateur' vs 'professional' ??? (Dec. 14 2014 14:34:50)

quote:

When I was playing professionally and teaching I practiced a minimum of 6 hours a day, every day with no exceptions.


Playing; teaching and still practicing 6 hours a day?

Jesus, John! When did you ever find time to eat?



Guest -> [Deleted] (Dec. 14 2014 15:14:36)

[Deleted by Admins]



gj Michelob -> RE: Practicing - 'amateur' vs 'professional' ??? (Dec. 14 2014 15:25:26)

quote:

Hard work and determination can take you a long way.


As obvious as this statement is, it remains the golden rule in the pursuit of success (and with "success" I simply mean attainment of one's goals, not necessarily wealth and fame).

And equally obvious is that determination and hard work are inherently tied to one another through a simple process of cause and effect, where hard work can only stem from determination, as a consequence of one's resolve to accomplish a certain objective.

The reason why I am dissecting ToddK's statement is my earnest desire to re-ignite an inspiration I fear lost. Since joining this Forum, I learned at least how ignorant, incompetent and talentless I truly am.

I miss those days when I thought I sounded "great", and my own recording felt satisfactory. Now, I am never pleased with anything I play, finding flaws in everything from tone to time.

The problem, however (and here is why I am dwelling on Toddk's point) is that the realization of my deficient skills is not stirring the desire to practice more and overcome each issue. Instead, it burns out my passion that seems to evaporate into even less productive, aimless and increasingly shorter playing sessions.



Morante -> RE: Practicing - 'amateur' vs 'professional' ??? (Dec. 14 2014 15:29:56)

The professionals I know don´t really practice: Román Vicente, Keko Baldomero, Oscar Lago etc., who are directors of music for a dance company, spend their time composing music and teaching the arrangement to other guitarists in the company. When they have a private contract, they have an incredible repertoire from which they can improvise. Singers also have an incredible repertoire of letras.

This is a process of constant renovation, of which an amateur cannot even concieve



Morante -> RE: Practicing - 'amateur' vs 'professional' ??? (Dec. 14 2014 15:37:39)



La May con Keko



Paul Magnussen -> RE: Practicing - 'amateur' vs 'professional' ??? (Dec. 14 2014 15:39:28)

quote:

Now, I am never pleased with anything I play


Remember that story of Paco de Lucía’s about how he was driving and some guitarist came on the radio, and he thought “Hey, this guy’s pretty good!”.

Then he realised it was himself, and he didn’t like it any more?

(What was that from?)



ToddK -> RE: Practicing - 'amateur' vs 'professional' ??? (Dec. 14 2014 17:02:45)

quote:

The professionals I know don´t really practice:


At some point years ago, they did. And they did it the right way.

Once you get rolling, you don't need to practice a bunch, if you're teaching
and playing gigs.
Some days, i only run through a couple of drills for 30 minutes.
This is just maintenance practice. I teach and play lots of gigs.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Dec. 14 2014 17:06:47)

[Deleted by Admins]



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Practicing - 'amateur' vs 'professional' ??? (Dec. 14 2014 17:10:42)

Thanks, Morante. That was great!

RNJ



jmb -> RE: Practicing - 'amateur' vs 'professional' ??? (Dec. 14 2014 19:16:51)

Nowadays the real professional level is so high means cantaor or tocaor 'largo' (play many palos and play well) and good falseta composer. I doubt that a really good tocaor could excluded insane hours of training or playing and getting perfection.

Remembering what I had read along my life in Spain: Niño ricardo was all the day with his guitar, Paco said ... you know... "La guitarra es una hija de puta, no hay instrumento màs desagradecido..."I read twenty years ago an interview of Tomatito, few years after of Camaron death, in which he declared to play 8 hours per day. I heard Cañizares to say more or less the same. Sanlucar declared in symposiums that the creation of a better good method, as in classical guitar, would be necessary because in flamenco all dependes on talent and effort .... The most of the few exceptions about this actitude that I heard, I won't say names, have not been regular along the time.



gj Michelob -> RE: Practicing - 'amateur' vs 'professional' ??? (Dec. 14 2014 20:24:36)

Yes Paul, really on point, aren't we so much more forgiving of the way others play and sound and so much more severe with ourselves?

Thank you for reminding me of that double standard, and from "ipse" PDL.



jshelton5040 -> RE: Practicing - 'amateur' vs 'professional' ??? (Dec. 14 2014 23:34:40)

quote:

ORIGINAL: britguy
Playing; teaching and still practicing 6 hours a day?

Jesus, John! When did you ever find time to eat?

Judging by my girth eating has never been a problem[:D]. I had a regular job playing at a restaurant for several years. Six nights a week three hours a night and five hours on weekends, I would practice all day then go to work and play for several more hours and sometimes had gigs during the day or after hours. I loved playing guitar more than anything and was devoted to both flamenco and classical. My classical teacher (Manuel Lopez-Ramos) suggested one should keep a minimum of 6 hours of repertoire ready for performance. I always tried to keep 3 hours of classical and 3 hours of flamenco ready. After arthritis eliminated my ability to play guitar I took up piano and now I practice piano around 1.5 to 2 hours a day and feel like the progress is really slow. I suppose I don't have the talent of some others who have posted on this subject, perhaps that's why I had to play so much to make any progress.



britguy -> RE: Practicing - 'amateur' vs 'professional' ??? (Dec. 15 2014 2:38:52)

quote:

After arthritis eliminated my ability to play guitar I took up piano and now I practice piano around 1.5 to 2 hours a day


That's interesting.

I also suffer from arthritis in both hands (I turn 80 on Tuesday 16th) and found I was having severe problems playing piano (mostly classical ragtime). So - after a few years lapse - I went back to my old guitars, and found I have far less problems than playing the piano.

I'm still a lousy player, but at least I don't suffer as much pain and aggravation. . . .



BarkellWH -> RE: Practicing - 'amateur' vs 'professional' ??? (Dec. 15 2014 11:02:25)

quote:


I also suffer from arthritis in both hands (I turn 80 on Tuesday 16th) and found I was having severe problems playing piano (mostly classical ragtime). So - after a few years lapse - I went back to my old guitars, and found I have far less problems than playing the piano.
I'm still a lousy player, but at least I don't suffer as much pain and aggravation. . . .


Happy birthday, Britguy! I am not a very good flamenco guitarist either, and I don't even have arthritis as an excuse.

Bill



Sr. Martins -> RE: Practicing - 'amateur' vs 'professional' ??? (Dec. 15 2014 13:44:21)

I have poor blood circulation (?) on my hands and feet. When it is cold like it is now, it takes about half an hour to start playing something decent. [8|]



Argaith -> RE: Practicing - 'amateur' vs 'professional' ??? (Dec. 15 2014 13:51:48)

Many happy returns Arthur :)

Apart from practicing the right way, etc; I think its generally down to how much one practices. In the best situation, if I am only doing my day job and have not a thousand other things to do in the evenings, I only get an hour to practice by the end of which I've only just warmed up!

I often feel embarrassed in front of my teacher and I think he's thinking that these guys can't be a*sed to try harder. I go to a group class and I think everyone else is pretty much in the same boat. We all have day jobs and often occasional evening ones. I am sure if I could think about nothing else than playing guitar and if I could afford doing nothing else other than playing guitar I could do much better.

A



jshelton5040 -> RE: Practicing - 'amateur' vs 'professional' ??? (Dec. 15 2014 14:12:40)

quote:

ORIGINAL: britguy

I also suffer from arthritis in both hands (I turn 80 on Tuesday 16th) and found I was having severe problems playing piano (mostly classical ragtime). So - after a few years lapse - I went back to my old guitars, and found I have far less problems than playing the piano.


You have me beat by a few years britguy. I think my arthritis is caused by guitar making. There's no pain or loss of facility, I just can't bend the joints on my left hand enough to play some chords. It doesn't interfere with piano much although I doubt as a 5 year beginner an old timer like me will ever develop the speed to play the advanced repertoire. What a delight to be able to play music again. When I quit playing guitar I thought it was over.



dreolino -> RE: Practicing - 'amateur' vs 'professional' ??? (Dec. 15 2014 14:24:35)

quote:

This whole practicing thing has been discussed ad infinitum on the foro in the past with some briliiant posts by some of the experts in the field.

hey nealf could you give me the link to the thread you are referring to? thx



gj Michelob -> RE: Practicing - 'amateur' vs 'professional' ??? (Dec. 15 2014 14:35:02)

quote:

I have poor blood circulation (?) on my hands and feet. When it is cold like it is now, it takes about half an hour to start playing something decent.


Do you smoke, Sr. Martins?
I had the same problem but after quitting cigarettes, the situation has significantly improved.



jmb -> RE: Practicing - 'amateur' vs 'professional' ??? (Dec. 15 2014 14:39:05)

quote:

Apart from practicing the right way, etc; I think its generally down to how much one practices. In the best situation, if I am only doing my day job and have not a thousand other things to do in the evenings, I only get an hour to practice by the end of which I've only just warmed up!


What's more, and very important: there are thousand of guitarists that can play Entre Dos Aguas more or less, but they are not true tocaores, just guitarists. For professional levels you need mor than play and stay. You need play for singers, dancers, peruvian box players, palmeros, etc ... and to get the actual improvisation skills that are the bulk of flamenco. And interaction with this enviroment requires more than hour per day.



Paul Magnussen -> RE: Practicing - 'amateur' vs 'professional' ??? (Dec. 15 2014 15:02:32)

“Playing one day with one singer, that doesn’t make you a flamenco guitarist with understanding. You’ve got to go there and play over and over and over, not with one but with many. Because each has a different accentuation, different rhythm, tempo, et cetera. This is how I see it.”

Juan Serrano



Leñador -> RE: Practicing - 'amateur' vs 'professional' ??? (Dec. 15 2014 15:23:51)

quote:

Do you smoke, Sr. Martins?
I had the same problem but after quitting cigarettes, the situation has significantly improved

I second this, same problem for me went away when I quit.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Practicing - 'amateur' vs 'professional' ??? (Dec. 15 2014 16:01:12)

I have numbness in the little finger and the one next to it, 3 and 4 of the left hand. It was enough for me to quit playing for a few years. There was a period also when I had sharp pains in the neck. My brother the medical doctor and I theorized that both were due to an old motorcycle wreck, in which a nerve in my neck was pinched enough to give me fairly severe back pain for a year or two.

One day about eight years ago I twisted my neck a certain way. There was a crunching noise. The neck pain went away. Theory was there was a bone spur which got busted up. The finger numbness remained.

Almost two years ago I decided to see where regular practice could take me. At first the 4 finger wouldn't even go to the right string. I worked on slow scales and easy classical pieces. Both control and feeling in the left hand fingers began to return. The brain and peripheral nerves responded to practice.

Long story short, I think I will be able to play intermediate to advanced repertoire in the next few months. It's been an encouraging experience. As some of you may know, I will be 77 the day before Christmas.

We're taking a couple of weeks off to go to Costa Rica to celebrate Larisa's Masters Degree.

RNJ



jmb -> RE: Practicing - 'amateur' vs 'professional' ??? (Dec. 15 2014 17:25:54)

quote:

“Playing one day with one singer, that doesn’t make you a flamenco guitarist with understanding. You’ve got to go there and play over and over and over, not with one but with many. Because each has a different accentuation, different rhythm, tempo, et cetera. This is how I see it.”

Juan Serrano


Perfect definition ... that's what we, Spaniards, all, understand as level of "professional 'tocaor'" or "professional cantaor", otherwise your are simply a good (professional) guitar player, singer or percussionist [:)]. It does not matter if your are the king of skillfull guitarists if you can't enhance 'el cante' properly. And that is the most difficult. Time with others is important in flamenco.



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