A couple questions about siguiriyas (Full Version)

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flyhere -> A couple questions about siguiriyas (Dec. 11 2014 21:06:03)

So due to work, I've been spending way too much time on the Los Angeles freeways and no time for guitar lessons. I recently bought the book by Jonathan Pascual, and trying to work my way through. A couple of questions, to make sure I'm not doing things wrong on my own.

1. The siguiriyas time is notated as 3/4+6/8. In my previous life as a classical guitar student, the beat in a 6/8 measure is 1 1/2 quarter notes (a “dotted” quarter note), giving it a sort of uneven length (I'm sure you all know what I mean here).

Now the 6 eighth-notes in siguiriyas all have equal length, correct? In fact all 12 eighth-notes are equal in length, correct? Meaning the 2 sets of the 3 eighth-notes are not triplets, they are just regular eighth-notes.

2. Wouldn't it be simpler to not divide the compas into 2 measures alternating 3/4 then 6/8? and simply write out all 12 beats in one single measure? It's just that I try to make sure which measure is 3/4 and which measure is 6/8, and just thinking one long measure would be simpler to follow, at least for a beginner like me, and I just have to learn the correct strong beats within each measure. (I know 12/8 would be incorrect, and I'm ok with 3/4+6/8).

Thanks
fly

PS. I really like the siguiriyas sound, nothing like listening to it over and over while sitting for hours in traffic. I'm going to try my best to learn it.



Paul Magnussen -> RE: A couple questions about siguiriyas (Dec. 11 2014 23:41:01)

Your facts are all correct. As to writing, each is of course entitled to his preference; but I notice that even Paco Peña, who wrote soleares and alegrías in 12-beat bars (in Toques Flamencos) resorted to 6/8 + 3/4 for the seguiriyas.

For one thing, it gives the correct accentuation; and for another, if you make bars too long, you tend to lose your place.

Indeed, I've thought about dividing the soleares and alegrías up in my copy for the latter reason, even though they aren't actually in anything like waltz time.

Hope this helps.

P.S. You may find it easier to count 1 & 2 & 3 &-a 4 &-a 5 &.



flyhere -> RE: A couple questions about siguiriyas (Dec. 12 2014 0:49:06)

Thanks Paul. Yes, the book teaches your way of counting, and I do find it easier.



chester -> RE: A couple questions about siguiriyas (Dec. 12 2014 4:19:06)

What you're missing is ♪ = ♪



Leñador -> RE: A couple questions about siguiriyas (Dec. 12 2014 4:20:49)

Yeah, you gotta drop the idea of time signatures and just keep track of the accents.
Boom ta boom ta boom ta ta boom ta ta boom ta
1 & 2 & 3 & uh 4 & uh 5 &
However you wanna call it but mostly just feel it.



flyhere -> RE: A couple questions about siguiriyas (Dec. 12 2014 4:25:50)

Make a bit more sense now, thanks all. The books comes with a CD, will listen more. I found a piece with no time signature and using single measure for all 12 beats, seems a bit easier to follow, for now at least.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: A couple questions about siguiriyas (Dec. 12 2014 4:32:06)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chester

What you're missing is ♪ = ♪.


I was taught to count siguiriyas as short-short-long-long-short, with long 1 1/2 times as long as short. This equates to Paul Magnussen's count, with each syllable equal to an eighth note.

If ♪ = ♪., long and short would be the same length, which is to say, there wouldn't be any long or short, just five equal beats per compas. It's not like that.

RNJ



chester -> RE: A couple questions about siguiriyas (Dec. 12 2014 7:17:35)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

quote:

ORIGINAL: chester

What you're missing is ♪ = ♪.


I was taught to count siguiriyas as short-short-long-long-short, with long 1 1/2 times as long as short. This equates to Paul Magnussen's count, with each syllable equal to an eighth note.

If ♪ = ♪., long and short would be the same length, which is to say, there wouldn't be any long or short, just five equal beats per compas. It's not like that.

RNJ


My mistake - the period was a force of habit rather than a part of the rhythmic notation - I'll edit my post. Thanks for pointing that out.



chester -> RE: A couple questions about siguiriyas (Dec. 12 2014 7:26:02)

quote:

ORIGINAL: flyhere
I found a piece with no time signature and using single measure for all 12 beats, seems a bit easier to follow, for now at least.

If you don't mind me suggesting - imo you'd be better off just playing the D - C - Bb - A - A line (or even just an A chord) to the beat until it becomes natural and danceable. Once you have the groove down everything will fall into place a lot easier.

It's more about playing at the right times rather than playing all the notes.



Sr. Martins -> RE: A couple questions about siguiriyas (Dec. 12 2014 12:20:33)

quote:

Boom ta boom ta boom ta


What is this Lenny? Reggaeton?



tri7/5 -> RE: A couple questions about siguiriyas (Dec. 12 2014 12:26:38)

The Siguiriyas in Juanitos book is a good piece and a good place to start learning the palo. It starts on the 5 (or 11 however you want to count it) so just an FYI there in case you hadn't noticed that. It threw me for a bit of a loop when I first looked at it as I wasn't really familiar with the palo at the time I started in on it.



jmb -> RE: A couple questions about siguiriyas (Dec. 12 2014 13:18:46)

Other approach...

Play Paco's 'Luzia' in your mp3 device, try to identified the five accents with claps. Repeat it hundred times (I never get tired), clap and enjoy. Then came back to the score... and voila!.... now numerical notation does not mind so much: you'll understand much better. Finguering is other issue... [:D]



Leñador -> RE: A couple questions about siguiriyas (Dec. 12 2014 14:59:01)

quote:

What is this Lenny? Reggaeton?

No, that'd be: boom ta ta, and repeat a thousand times. [:D]



Paul Magnussen -> RE: A couple questions about siguiriyas (Dec. 12 2014 15:42:19)

Once you have it in your brain, you’re all set. Try tapping it on the lamp-post while you’re waiting for a bus, for example — numbers with the right hand, others with the left.

Your fellow-passengers will think you’re a lunatic, of course, but so what?



Morante -> RE: A couple questions about siguiriyas (Dec. 12 2014 17:05:10)

When you are walking, just count along with the footsteps: 1 and 2 and 3 and a 4 and a 5 and etc.

But remember, when you accompany a singer, this compás is elastic[;)]



flyhere -> RE: A couple questions about siguiriyas (Dec. 12 2014 17:23:37)

@tri7/5: Yes I noticed, thanks. Actually, that started me wondering about how the measures are written in the first place.

@jmb, @Paul, @Morante: One reason I do not car pool with others to work! I play and count out loud and slap my leg, may be practice my rasguedo a bit. I think clapping not too practical while driving, can be done though, and so is tapping with the foot, I tend to tap my right foot and not my left [;)]

On that, I noticed the dancers I watched all do palmas while sitting and on certain beats, raised their right leg (not tapping, kneeing, similar to muy thai). I can't remember what palos it was, might have been a solea or buleria. Must have been a common teaching.

Thanks all.
fly



Paul Magnussen -> RE: A couple questions about siguiriyas (Dec. 12 2014 17:57:17)

quote:

not tapping, kneeing, similar to muy thai


Maybe they’re going to kick the guitarist.



Ricardo -> RE: A couple questions about siguiriyas (Dec. 12 2014 21:38:04)

I disagree that there is going to be several "correct" ways to write it...also, it is correct that the 8th note (not the quarter or dotted quarters involved) should be giving the driving metronome marking. I have talked about this with several musicians from other disciplines (especially percussionists that are used to reading crazy stuff) and the consensus is that we have alternating bars of odd meter that happen to add up to twelve. That would be a bar of 7/8 plus a bar of 5/8...both very mediterranean type beats in terms of accent pattern, and when notated make perfect sense phrasing wise to what siguiriyas compas expresses compared to other methods of notation.

Other methods of notating compas "work" only because the guitar playing readers get used to whatever method, as they never site read flamenco anyway, discovering the rhythmic feeling only after the notes are memorized.

Ricardo



chester -> RE: A couple questions about siguiriyas (Dec. 12 2014 23:06:12)

quote:

a bar of 7/8 plus a bar of 5/8

Never thought about it that way but honestly makes perfect sense - just gotta beam the notes so the groupings will be obvious.

quote:

never site read flamenco anyway

My philosophy is that if you can't pick it out by ear - you're most likely not ready to play it.

quote:

Play Paco's 'Luzia' in your mp3 device, try to identified the five accents with claps. Repeat it hundred times (I never get tired), clap and enjoy. Then came back to the score... and voila!.... now numerical notation does not mind so much: you'll understand much better.

Going for Paco before you have the basic rhythm down is like trying to play Little Wing before you can manage House of the Rising Sun.

Of course what you do with your free time is up to you...



Richard Jernigan -> RE: A couple questions about siguiriyas (Dec. 13 2014 14:12:55)

Alternating 5/8 and 7/8 seems like a potentially good solution for writing. But don't a lot of people actually count with the unequal beats I mentioned before? There seems to be no provision in standard notation for unequal beats.

Last September the classical duo Les Freres Meduses gave a concert at the house of a local patron of the arts. They had been doing concerts at the public schools during the previous week. They play a lot of Balkan music, with 5/8, 7/8...up to 13/8 meter, pretty fast. To get the kids involved they had them clapping out the rhythms--actually using patterns of gestures: patting the thighs, clapping, crossing arms and tapping shoulders--in a prescribed sequence for each meter.

They decided to do the same thing with the assembled 60 or so people at the house concert. I would guess there were no more than half a dozen people in the audience under the age of 55. It was a hoot to see and hear the well dressed and gray haired crowd all enthusiastically clapping and grinning.

RNJ



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