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Guest -> [Deleted] (Dec. 7 2014 3:26:39)

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Sr. Martins -> RE: Terrible polish from Mariano Conde - what to do? (Dec. 7 2014 3:35:18)

Thin polyurethane is very easily scratched & dented. Thick polyurethane is like glass... which is not good.

The string marks from the strings are normal, after the wood compresses in those spots the mark will remain but it will stay that way.




krichards -> RE: Terrible polish from Mariano Conde - what to do? (Dec. 7 2014 7:32:15)

quote:

Never seen anything like this before and leaves me scratching my head how come a guitar in the 4-5000$ range could possibly have such really cheap execution.


This doesn't really surprise me. The Conde label is worth a lot and probably doubles the price compared to similar less well known makes. And its doubtful that Mariano Conde ever laid a finger on it.
Where was it made? Who knows?

It can be refinished but would it be worth it? Is it a really good guitar apart from the poor finish?

Maybe you should sell it on and cut your losses? The sad thing is, for that money, you could buy a top class luthier made instrument.




Stephen Eden -> RE: Terrible polish from Mariano Conde - what to do? (Dec. 7 2014 10:36:54)

It could be that they are just trying to listen to the customers on this one. How many times do we hear that they are just throwing a bucket load of finished over it and deadening the sound! A thin poly finish is not easily done.

French polish marks just as easily and most of the high end builders use for a very good reason.

I would suggest just taking a lot more care over the handling of this guitar. I have seen many well played FP guitars with not a single marke on them.




Tom Blackshear -> RE: Terrible polish from Mariano Conde - what to do? (Dec. 7 2014 12:41:42)

It could be any number of things but my guess is that the finish has not dried out and cured enough, so handle it with care and allow some time for the finish to age.

This could indicate that their guitar sales are pushing the envelop and not getting enough drying time.

I have two new Manuel Adalid guitars with French polish and they need a little more drying time, as the finish needs about a year to polymerize, even though they are playable at this time. So, most of it is about treating them with care so that the finish can cure.




jshelton5040 -> RE: Terrible polish from Mariano Conde - what to do? (Dec. 7 2014 13:48:53)

quote:

ORIGINAL: encanto

I recently bought a Mariano Conde (of the famous Conde Hermanos) flamenco guitar (EF4) which impressed me with its sound, but soon after I discovered that they have used an incredibly cheap and thin-looking laquer to finish it, which sustains damage from even the slightest mechanical action. We're not even talking of heavy flamenco tapping here - simply pressing a finger against the soundboard will usually be enough to leave a nail mark.

If it's that soft after a month it probably isn't lacquer. Every lacquer I've used dries in minutes and cures in 2-3 weeks (faster if catalyzed). It could be an improperly mixed polyester or other catalyzed finish. Contrary to most people's opinions polyester can be applied very thin even though it frequently isn't.




Sr. Martins -> RE: Terrible polish from Mariano Conde - what to do? (Dec. 7 2014 13:59:27)

If it really is a curing issue and the guitar still smells "finishy", leave it out of the case in a place where air circulates well. Problem will be solved in no time.




johnguitar -> RE: Terrible polish from Mariano Conde - what to do? (Dec. 7 2014 19:42:15)

Dear Encanto,

This is obviously a case of mistaken identity. You are describing the characteristics of french polish (goma laca). Having it as thin as possible is what makes it so desirable but that is also what makes it so delicate. What you describe as cheap execution is for most builders and clients the "highest end" finish, also the most labour intensive. I am sorry to hear that it is not what you wanted. A lot of Madrid guitars are spray finished but as you can see here Mariano Conde has some of them french polished http://instrumentoselclavijero.com/productos/guitarras-cl%C3%A1sicas/mariano-conde/
even though is seems that the flamencoes are not. Maybe it was a special order.




Guest -> [Deleted] (Dec. 7 2014 20:48:14)

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Sr. Martins -> RE: Terrible polish from Mariano Conde - what to do? (Dec. 7 2014 21:02:37)

quote:

it has Mariano's handwritten label on it with his characteristic handwriting and I am sure he did at least some of the work on it


Maybe he touched the guitar when signing it [:D]


Seriously, you should take a picture. As I've said, thin lacquer is very different from the usual bullet proof lacquer. I have both kinds and while the "very thin" specimen gets dented easily, the "regular" one got only a minor scratch on the top when a bass fell on it with a tuner. Had this happened to the other guitar it would be destroyed.




Guest -> [Deleted] (Dec. 8 2014 0:24:33)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Mar. 28 2015 2:36:48




Sr. Martins -> RE: Terrible polish from Mariano Conde - what to do? (Dec. 8 2014 2:19:38)

The first picture is somewhat common. You might have similar ocurrings on the inside of the headstock area.


If you did that to the finish just by pressing a bit with your nail.. cut your nails. You're going to kill someone with those axes. [sm=lol.gif]




Guest -> [Deleted] (Dec. 8 2014 3:06:48)

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krichards -> RE: Terrible polish from Mariano Conde - what to do? (Dec. 8 2014 6:14:08)

quote:

With respect to Kevin's post -- I think the guitar is authentic enough, it has Mariano's handwritten label on it with his characteristic handwriting and I am sure he did at least some of the work on it, but probably not all. My guess is he did most jobs that are important for the sound - e.g. the bracing, joining, and assembly, and left the fretting and polish to some of his associates. . It is a strange combination of things perfectly done (if you look at the inside of the guitar, everything is super precise, no drop of extra glue anywhere, carefully and finely done) and things sloppily done (e.g. fretting, polish). Sound-wise it does appear to have the distinctive Conde sound, and I have a lot of recordings to compare to, so sound-wise I've got no complaints.


OK I stand corrected and please forgive my cynicism. He did at least add his signature.

Apart from the finish, you clearly like the guitar, and its a Conde after all. Guitars are for playing and, if it gets a little beaten up in time, its not so important.
Just enjoy it.




oc chuck -> RE: Terrible polish from Mariano Conde - what to do? (Dec. 8 2014 6:49:18)

Do you have access to a good luthier or
finisher? Hands ( and eyes ) on evaluation
maybe the way to get more exact info to make
a better decision.

This may be the time to strip and refinish the top.
I've done this on two of my older guitars.
$400 to $500, at the shop of a top luthier for a
french polish finish.

Is this a ceder top, which is much softer than spruce?

P.S. is there any warranty on the finish?




Anders Eliasson -> RE: Terrible polish from Mariano Conde - what to do? (Dec. 8 2014 8:23:52)

The EF4 is a relatively cheap Conde guitar. Look at the prices of a A26 which is the standar top level blanca. They have no reason to sell top models for lesser than the A26.
Without being totally sure, I´m 99% sure that it was made in some Valencia factory. They normally overspray everything and noramlly use polyester or polyurethane. Yes, it will have the handwriting of Mr. Conde and thats it... I hope you knew that before buying, because its a totally public secret and it is a Spanish culture thing. Every place in the world has its ways of doing things.

The soundboard looks pretty wide grained and many of the cheaper german spruce soundboards that you can buy here, are pretty soft. They come from areas with a high grow rate.

Noone can tell you what the finish is by seing internet photos and even in direct, it can be difficult. Since I would never have bought it, I would sell it for a decent price, call it an experience, go on with life and contact a luthier or buy a guitar with thick polyurethane finish.

With respect of nails, you´ll find that most players, yes, also here in Spain use relatively short nails (exept the thumb) This makes you build up more callus and give you this sound which is a mixture of callus and nail and not that (to clean) sound of long thick nails. It also has the advantage of having less problems with breaking nails and denting guitars.

Good luck.




Sr. Martins -> RE: Terrible polish from Mariano Conde - what to do? (Dec. 8 2014 16:23:02)

quote:

Hehehe this is nothing. You've gotta see the nails that flamenco guys in Spain have, and then we can talk again


What I meant is that you aren't being careful. Those marks were clearly done by your mistake on handling and caring.

I often cut myself on my right hand thumbnail, it's very hard. If I press it against a guitar top, specially along with the grain, it will have the same effect as pushing a screwdriver head against it.




Ricardo -> RE: Terrible polish from Mariano Conde - what to do? (Dec. 8 2014 16:41:01)

With all due respect... the pics look like normal interms of what happens to normal lacquer guitars if you push your nail into the top as you described. Those dents and lines can happen to thick lacquer too. It looks like thick lacquer to me. What does NOT make sense is your description of using a stick on protection you try to apply yourself. Why did the guitar not already have a golpeador???

If anyone is curious about mariano conde vs Felipe, I had the privilege of an almost direct comparison of the two builders work (this july on a friday Felipe and son were in Sanlucar with two guitars, saturday I was in Madrid and visited Mariano). To be frank, Felipe and his son's guitars are superior. His son brought a cedar top negra that he built that had some minor set up flaws (nut spacing etc) but wow what a sound!

Mariano guitars were very thick lacquered and stiff sounding, even one instrument hanging in the glass case I tried did not yet have a lable stuck on! He spent the entire time I was there sanding the back of a Koa flamenco. I thought he was gonna eventually make a hole in it!!! [:D] He showed me the downstairs shop where he had practically finished guitars just lying about, even on the floor or leaning against the bench etc. He said he has his son and two other guys helping him. My amigo, who was making fun of the entire siesta experience (his first time in Spain) said, "where are they, still on siesta"? [:D] [:D]

Ricardo




Tom Blackshear -> RE: Terrible polish from Mariano Conde - what to do? (Dec. 8 2014 18:57:12)

Ricardo,

I have a question for you. Are the Conde brothers making their own guitars?

The way I hear it from some people who know the brothers, is that most, if not all, Conde guitars are made by other makers, including some factories, even the Felipe V's are made by other builders.....

I heard this from a good source. What's going on?

The Condes might have the guitars in their shop but the way I heard it is that they are for sale there but not made there.




Ricardo -> RE: Terrible polish from Mariano Conde - what to do? (Dec. 8 2014 23:00:45)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

Ricardo,

I have a question for you. Are the Conde brothers making their own guitars?

The way I hear it from some people who know the brothers, is that most, if not all, Conde guitars are made by other makers, including some factories, even the Felipe V's are made by other builders.....

I heard this from a good source. What's going on?

The Condes might have the guitars in their shop but the way I heard it is that they are for sale there but not made there.


Are we REALLY going there again?[:D]
I asked felipe if he finished his guitars and he said he, his son and daughter also, FP in the shop but for lacquered guitar they send em out. (Like anders did in the Guitarrero movie, he builds the guitar, hands it off to finisher pro, then later sets it up in shop). A friend told me (at the same moment I asked, wispering in my ear as he answered others questions) that Felipe was LYING, that he had no clue how to FP and was seen by a friend of the friend (heresay at this point) to be trying to learn how in the shop of R. Sanchis and sons...but they failed to learn the technique and gave up. The same friend did change his story (from years ago anyway) that Felipe DID infact assemble the A model guitar. Somebody would have to commission and film the process I guess as Escribano did for Anders, otherwise it is all conjecture.

Regardless it is clear they did not make ALL the models so they certainly contract to Valencia for a lot of guitars. I can only say that my hands and ears don't accept that Sanchis R. or V. or esteve etc made any of the Condes from Felipe V, A model guitars, which has been the prevailing rumor. I know for fact only that Atocha contracts to R. Sanchis as they were permitted (in one case) to stamp their casa on the soundboard. The prices there were comparable however so it did not seem so surprising as if the same is the case for all the felipe V guitars. Since the brothers split, Mariano seems to be business as usual offering the full line of models, and Felipe is only making two models (at much higher prices than his brother). At this point I would recommend the instrument his son makes which is very high quality and also cheaper.




Guest -> [Deleted] (Dec. 8 2014 23:29:41)

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Sr. Martins -> RE: Terrible polish from Mariano Conde - what to do? (Dec. 9 2014 0:13:02)

If it is the guitar you like, who cares where it was made?

There are lots of conde guitars out there so... if the higher end models are known to be outsourced, it is a very romantic thing for you to think that Mariano is wasting his time on student models. Well, maybe he only builds the student models and outsources the models which are supposed to be good. [:D]


By the pics you've posted, I see a user mistake, not a factory issue.




Guest -> [Deleted] (Dec. 9 2014 1:26:52)

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estebanana -> RE: Terrible polish from Mariano Conde - what to do? (Dec. 9 2014 1:35:44)

I don't use this one very often, but this situation fully warrants it:



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px




Sr. Martins -> RE: Terrible polish from Mariano Conde - what to do? (Dec. 9 2014 2:25:54)

I used to joke a lot around here but Iam honestly just trying to help you organize your train of thought.

At this point Iam thinking that you just want us to agree with you.


Yeah, your guitar sucks and Mariano couldn't be bothered to finish it properly.


He just passed it on to his wife while she was manicuring:




Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px




Guest -> [Deleted] (Dec. 9 2014 2:55:41)

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Sr. Martins -> RE: Terrible polish from Mariano Conde - what to do? (Dec. 9 2014 2:57:26)

I see




keith -> RE: Terrible polish from Mariano Conde - what to do? (Dec. 9 2014 6:56:44)

the ef-4 is the bottom of the line so i doubt if the guitar is french polished. the finish could have been mixed incorrectly or under applied--maybe someone came back from lunch on a friday and was not paying attention. sounds to me the sensible thing is to contact mr. conde and discuss whether or not the guitar should be returned.




Anders Eliasson -> RE: Terrible polish from Mariano Conde - what to do? (Dec. 10 2014 7:36:37)

Mr Encanto
Could you please do a research about all the Conde discussions we´ve had over the years. Maybe you´ll understand why we dont really care about it anymore. And when you get angry at us, dont expect us to find the original questions more interesting. Most of us are really sick and tired about Conde guitars.

As Keith said, the EF-4 and 5 are the bottom models which are sold at prices that are about the same level as most top models from the individual builders here. Would you as a builder take that serious?

If the guitar blows everything else away, stay with it and consider yourself a lucky guy. Have a new golpeador fitted that suits your playing and go on and play the thing.

Besides, Noone will take your nail marks close to the edge of the waist serious. You will be told to keep your fingers and nails where they are supposed to be or cut the nails.




estebanana -> RE: Terrible polish from Mariano Conde - what to do? (Dec. 10 2014 9:49:02)

Read to your hearts content. We have answered the Conde' questions over and over and over for free, FREE FREE.

Basically your playing is out of control. Sorry, but your left hand is wild and if you have ever seen how Spaniards play, they don't scritichty scratch all over the place, they have nice neat left hands that engage the strings under control.

If you've been playing 20 years you aught to know that by now. If you scratched one of my guitars like that, I'd just say you need to focus on left hand work.

So what you have a scratched guitar, big deal. You're just another neurotic guitar player who has not gotten your technique together yet and you are getting pissed at others about it. Join the club.

The finish on your guitar is not terrible, as people have bene trying to tell you, it's just like any other guitar finish. It's fragile. What do you want formica on the tapa?

http://www.foroflamenco.com/searchpro.asp?topicreply=both&message=both&timeframe=%3E&timefilter=0&top=300&criteria=AND&minRank=10&language=single&phrase=conde%27




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