How do you stay motivated? (Full Version)

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UnderTheSun -> How do you stay motivated? (Nov. 13 2014 10:08:50)

How do you stay focused to learn flamenco?

I have periods where I am very into it and put a lot of energy into learning. I am a slow learner, but I learn good when I do it.

I am very impatient with following lessons, but put a lot of effort into practicing.

My periods of flamenco interest normally lasts a few weeks and then I get completely overwhelmed by the difficulity of it all. I loose motiatvion and interest completely for weeks or months. In this time I play other instruments or other styles on the guitar.

When I come back to flamenco I notice that I have developed a lot during my time away from it. This is a great source of inspiration :)

Anyone else who has this problem? I wonder what I could achieve if I managed to only practice flamenco?



Ricardo -> RE: How do you stay motivated? (Nov. 13 2014 13:23:40)

If you mean you are getting burnt out on the playing technique stuff, well, I recommend getting into the CANTE. There is so much to study from listening and seeing performances of singers, and the accompanyments are usually not so technique heavy as just solo playing can be. Further, the songs themselves are a major source of inspiration (playing practicing or composing) for pretty much every great flamenco player in history.



tele -> RE: How do you stay motivated? (Nov. 13 2014 14:35:50)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

If you mean you are getting burnt out on the playing technique stuff, well, I recommend getting into the CANTE. There is so much to study from listening and seeing performances of singers, and the accompanyments are usually not so technique heavy as just solo playing can be. Further, the songs themselves are a major source of inspiration (playing practicing or composing) for pretty much every great flamenco player in history.


It can be inspiring to some, but I am myself in the situation where I think if learning accompanying(other styles than seguiriyas or solea) is necessary for me since I very rarely hang out with singers.
More than that after seeing Gerardo Nunez concert yesterday with three guitars, bass and cajon, I wonder if it's even worth the effort for me since that concert was several times more interesting than anything I have seen in flamenco with singer. Cante is also so demanding in sense of understanding the words, which altough not absolutely necessary but helps. It was fun playing solea and seguiriyas with some singers in one Peña flamenca but I really am wondering if I should put the effort into it.
It really is a challenge though and can bring inspiration, especially when finally playing with some aficionados. I guess it depends how much people are into the cante.



Ricardo -> RE: How do you stay motivated? (Nov. 13 2014 15:47:45)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tele

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

If you mean you are getting burnt out on the playing technique stuff, well, I recommend getting into the CANTE. There is so much to study from listening and seeing performances of singers, and the accompanyments are usually not so technique heavy as just solo playing can be. Further, the songs themselves are a major source of inspiration (playing practicing or composing) for pretty much every great flamenco player in history.


It can be inspiring to some, but I am myself in the situation where I think if learning accompanying(other styles than seguiriyas or solea) is necessary for me since I very rarely hang out with singers.
More than that after seeing Gerardo Nunez concert yesterday with three guitars, bass and cajon, I wonder if it's even worth the effort for me since that concert was several times more interesting than anything I have seen in flamenco with singer. Cante is also so demanding in sense of understanding the words, which altough not absolutely necessary but helps. It was fun playing solea and seguiriyas with some singers in one Peña flamenca but I really am wondering if I should put the effort into it.
It really is a challenge though and can bring inspiration, especially when finally playing with some aficionados. I guess it depends how much people are into the cante.


I hear you and respect your opinion. Saddly, I am afraid that if a student simply refuses to learn about cante because they don't like or understand it, then there is something wrong. Of course it is an aquired taste for most, especially if you are not born in that culture. And even if you are, it's a shame actually young people even from andalucia are not into it. Simply put, it is the cante from which all inspiration for flamenco comes from. It is just waiting there to be discovered by new comers to the art regardless if one wants to tread lightly or dive in. It is also fine to be inspired by other things such as guitar solos, so long as it is respected that the great guitar soloists were first inspired by cante, so the indirect inspiration is still present like it or not. I only advise to some that are getting burnt out on guitar practice might benefit greatly by returning to the source. And I dont' mean just playing one or two palos for local singers in a peña, but deep listening of the classics.

Ricardo



Sr. Martins -> RE: How do you stay motivated? (Nov. 13 2014 16:12:27)

I believe it's hard for most of the people to listen to music in an analytical way.. and for those who can, most of the times it's hard to switch it off [:D]


What I mean is that if someone took the time to transcribe the vocal melody and play it on a second guitar, people would think that the second guitar line was composed for guitar.. which is to say that there's a HUGE pile of vocal melodies in flamenco guitar lines/falsetas but the tone of the voice usually shuts off people's perception.


Did I make any sense? [8D]



Ricardo -> RE: How do you stay motivated? (Nov. 13 2014 16:24:11)

I hear you. I would not insist a student listen to only Mairena or Fosforito since they were encyclopedic. That could have the opposite effect from trying to inspire someone. Rather if one finds a singer touching in anyway, to investigate deeper that artists repertoire. No need to be analytical about it. That can come much later after the inspiration has done it's job.

And while it is true many falsetas borrow directly from vocals, it need not be the goal or end result of the inspriation. Point is simply to get excited and motivated to keep working. I for one might take away some specific rhythmic ideas of the accompanist that plays for a favorite singer.

Ricardo



tele -> RE: How do you stay motivated? (Nov. 13 2014 16:41:47)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: tele

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

If you mean you are getting burnt out on the playing technique stuff, well, I recommend getting into the CANTE. There is so much to study from listening and seeing performances of singers, and the accompanyments are usually not so technique heavy as just solo playing can be. Further, the songs themselves are a major source of inspiration (playing practicing or composing) for pretty much every great flamenco player in history.


It can be inspiring to some, but I am myself in the situation where I think if learning accompanying(other styles than seguiriyas or solea) is necessary for me since I very rarely hang out with singers.
More than that after seeing Gerardo Nunez concert yesterday with three guitars, bass and cajon, I wonder if it's even worth the effort for me since that concert was several times more interesting than anything I have seen in flamenco with singer. Cante is also so demanding in sense of understanding the words, which altough not absolutely necessary but helps. It was fun playing solea and seguiriyas with some singers in one Peña flamenca but I really am wondering if I should put the effort into it.
It really is a challenge though and can bring inspiration, especially when finally playing with some aficionados. I guess it depends how much people are into the cante.


I hear you and respect your opinion. Saddly, I am afraid that if a student simply refuses to learn about cante because they don't like or understand it, then there is something wrong. Of course it is an aquired taste for most, especially if you are not born in that culture. And even if you are, it's a shame actually young people even from andalucia are not into it. Simply put, it is the cante from which all inspiration for flamenco comes from. It is just waiting there to be discovered by new comers to the art regardless if one wants to tread lightly or dive in. It is also fine to be inspired by other things such as guitar solos, so long as it is respected that the great guitar soloists were first inspired by cante, so the indirect inspiration is still present like it or not. I only advise to some that are getting burnt out on guitar practice might benefit greatly by returning to the source. And I dont' mean just playing one or two palos for local singers in a peña, but deep listening of the classics.

Ricardo


Yes but it's a whole different amount of dedication, learning accompanying and listening to it. I agree it takes time to develop liking for cante, especially when the meaning of the words is where most of the beauty is.



jmb -> RE: How do you stay motivated? (Nov. 13 2014 17:17:01)

A good method could be:

1) Attend a good flamenco concert or play a good recording (much better with friends)
2) Take a seat
3) Get a mixture of good gin with good tonic water or any kind of wine or spirit drink.
4) Don't think about 'compás'
5) Don't think about guitar or qualities.
6) Don't think about notes or scores
7) Don't think about palos
8) If steps 4-7 are diffcult, repeat the step 3 again.[:D]
9) Simply, enjoy, share and feel the music and the sound...
10) Pick your renewed interest in flamenco up.

And if you do not undertand the lyrics, don't worry, you always can ask here. Somedody will help you....



Mark2 -> RE: How do you stay motivated? (Nov. 13 2014 17:30:03)

Fear is a great motivator. Book a gig. You'll want to practice......



dreolino -> RE: How do you stay motivated? (Nov. 13 2014 17:35:56)

ideas for fresh air:

change the tuning, for instance rondeña tuning or others.

change the strings more often

check new resources, the last that I've found that motivated me in a new way were: tomaflamenco.com and http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/video-lessons/flamenco/

and last: safe some money to get a flight or get a volunteering job in andalucía ;)



BarkellWH -> RE: How do you stay motivated? (Nov. 13 2014 18:42:45)

quote:

I hear you and respect your opinion. Saddly, I am afraid that if a student simply refuses to learn about cante because they don't like or understand it, then there is something wrong. Of course it is an aquired taste for most, especially if you are not born in that culture. And even if you are, it's a shame actually young people even from andalucia are not into it. Simply put, it is the cante from which all inspiration for flamenco comes from. It is just waiting there to be discovered by new comers to the art regardless if one wants to tread lightly or dive in. It is also fine to be inspired by other things such as guitar solos, so long as it is respected that the great guitar soloists were first inspired by cante, so the indirect inspiration is still present like it or not.


Spot-on, Ricardo. Cante is the source and inspiration for all flamenco. I am a perfect example of someone who originally did not care for cante, but after listening over and over to Fosforito and Cameron, acquired the taste, and now I cannot believe I once did not care for it. As hooked as I still am on solo guitar, I love really good cante that can send chills down my spine.

Bill



ToddK -> RE: How do you stay motivated? (Nov. 13 2014 19:12:06)

Sometimes you just need to take a break.

Sometimes a short break, sometimes a long break.

Perspective is everything. Variety is the spice of life, as they say.



Leñador -> RE: How do you stay motivated? (Nov. 13 2014 19:53:33)

If Paco never listened to cante he'd just be Yngwie Malmsteen lolol

Groove is under-rated by newbie flamenco guitarists. Lightening fast picado ain't worth a damn if you can't groove. Best way to learn groove? Accompany, that's it.



UnderTheSun -> RE: How do you stay motivated? (Nov. 13 2014 20:59:00)

Wow! So much good advice in one thread!



NenadK -> RE: How do you stay motivated? (Nov. 14 2014 5:05:25)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark2

Fear is a great motivator. Book a gig. You'll want to practice......


+1!

I recently started playing for beginner dance classes. This may not be a performance but trust me, when they tell you what they want you don't want to disappoint them. I've been booking lessons left and right since this happened and progress has been really good. Your learn a lot within a very short span of time. There's sometimes even a need to compose which I've never done so far but the class is a swift kick in the ass that's for sure.

The nice thing is that yes like others mentioned, variety is important to prevent yourself from getting bored but classes provide that too. One class the biggest problem is nailing the rasgueado in the remate, the next its figuring out what to play for some section, the next you have to move everything to a different key, the next you have to figure out how to accompany a letra, the next they decide they want a different letra...It's so much fun honestly.

Good luck with whatever approach you choose!

Nenad



Miguel de Maria -> RE: How do you stay motivated? (Nov. 14 2014 5:30:57)

Over ten years ago, I went to a two week workshop in Sevilla (it turned out to be three, including a week of private lessons, but that's a different story). During those three weeks, I saw probably over 20 shows, many of them by the faculty of the school (Cristina Heeren). I was studying with guys mostly from Northern Europe, some Americans. We all wanted to get better at flamenco and the whole thing was quite motivating, starting with trying to get in shape _for_ the workshop. Between classes, I went to my apartment and practiced until having people hit my window during siesta or late at night (then I learned to use a mute). Something like that could recharge your batteries for quite awhile.



UnderTheSun -> RE: How do you stay motivated? (Nov. 14 2014 6:32:08)

@Ricardo

Can you point me in the direction of some cante on youtube I can start with? This is unfamiliar for. In Flamenco the guitar has always been in focus.

I might be going to a village north of Algeciras next summer to visit some friends there. Sadly there's rarely any activity in the pena anymore :( Anyway I'm sure the andalucian atmosphere will bring back a lot of interest!!!



jmb -> RE: How do you stay motivated? (Nov. 14 2014 9:26:19)

Let's forget the guitar for a second. Try to discover other points of view in flamenco. Let's listent to the ancient gypsy sounds. Perhaps this recordings seem tacky o toot rough, but the roots of flamenco are there. And the flamboyant, skillful and precious Paco's Universe has his root there. Paco grew sourrounded by this sounds.

There is a broad range of flamenco palos. On one hand... the 'jondo' (deep, solemn) styles. For some flamencos beauty is not the most important but it happens .... This is a great Martinete. Pain, tragedy of other deep expressions of the singer is the goal and no guitar is used (sometimes they mark the compas with a hammer or a bell). The compas is similar to siguiriya but could be lost sometimes (Dont't count). In this cante melodious voices are usually counter-productive and rough/scary voices are really worth.

Nadie diga que es locura
esto que por ti yo estoy haciendo
para darte con mi gusto
este caudal que tengo

Ya yo no soy quien era
ni quien debía ser,
Soy un mueble de tristeza
Arrumbado por la pared.

Translation, (more or less, I try my best but.. ):

Nobody should say that is madness
What I am doing for you.
I paying you with pleasure
the wealth that I have.

I am not who I was,
and neither who I should be.
I am a sadness forniture
leaned against the wall.



On the other hand ... the 'festeros' (happy) palos. Do not forget the ludic character of flamenco or desmotivation will be there. These are actual gypsy children from Madrid in the street ... They have an special sound in their voices and singing is not a challenge for them, it is a social acivity. We say that they sound 'gypsy'. Few no-gypsy singers has get this special texture. Most singers as Diego el Cigala o Camaron learnt in these enviroments and in this way.



I hope you could apreciate some small details from wich you can found new ways to explore flamenco.



tele -> RE: How do you stay motivated? (Nov. 14 2014 11:15:55)

I want to add that I didn't quite understand you meant by getting into the cante, listening to it, not playing for it. It would be indeed not complete flamenco with only guitar as original flamenco was cante only and it still is probably more important. Also listening to guitar solos only can become boring after some period.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

I hear you. I would not insist a student listen to only Mairena or Fosforito since they were encyclopedic. That could have the opposite effect from trying to inspire someone. Rather if one finds a singer touching in anyway, to investigate deeper that artists repertoire. No need to be analytical about it. That can come much later after the inspiration has done it's job.

And while it is true many falsetas borrow directly from vocals, it need not be the goal or end result of the inspriation. Point is simply to get excited and motivated to keep working. I for one might take away some specific rhythmic ideas of the accompanist that plays for a favorite singer.

Ricardo



etta -> RE: How do you stay motivated? (Nov. 14 2014 15:22:07)

Buy 3-4 top notch guitars with different voices. That variety will coax you to play more; one can be inspired with a variety of female companions, and so with guitars.



UnderTheSun -> RE: How do you stay motivated? (Nov. 14 2014 15:48:37)

3-4 top notch guitars? I can't even afford one! [8|]

Someday I am going to buy a top notch guitar, but it's far ahead



Ricardo -> RE: How do you stay motivated? (Nov. 14 2014 21:38:53)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UnderTheSun

@Ricardo

Can you point me in the direction of some cante on youtube I can start with? This is unfamiliar for. In Flamenco the guitar has always been in focus.

I might be going to a village north of Algeciras next summer to visit some friends there. Sadly there's rarely any activity in the pena anymore :( Anyway I'm sure the andalucian atmosphere will bring back a lot of interest!!!


Here is a beautiful short concert where we have two fantastic singers having a sort of "duel" with an excellent lone guitar accomanist. The style of music is modern with very solid roots in the traditional cante. The interplay between guitar and voice is quite "motivating" IMO. Enjoy

http://youtu.be/HGXR29y2snY



rogeliocan -> RE: How do you stay motivated? (Nov. 14 2014 22:11:52)

Ahhhh flamenco!
I never got demotivated but I always recognized how difficult and how much knowledge there is to learn about flamenco. You definitely need a lot of perseverance. This is my experience of course, even worst for not starting young, and compounded by the fact hat I had never heard it before.
I love and I 'hate' flamenco, I hate it because of all of the time and of my thoughts it consumes, a decision that takes you away from other things in life. A serious choice.

If I was to tell you how to stay with it I would tell you:
- well first, it has to be a passion, nothing else will keep you working at it.
- I don't believe there are any quick wins in flamenco, every improvement is a medium to long term objective. Accepting this will avoid thinking you don't have it or are not getting it, it takes time.
- Set yourself realistic goals. That is aim for attainable, progressive objectives. Simple things first. Listening to pros and even young (relatively speaking) flamenco players can be a real downer because they are so good and fast.
-Practice a lot and often otherwise you will stagnate, and that is demotivating.
-Another thing I would add is don't spread out, don't feel you have to understand, know and learn every palos there is and everything about flamenco history. I find that too overwhelming, making me feel I have to climb a negative angle cliff. Focus on the stuff you like.



Cervantes -> RE: How do you stay motivated? (Nov. 15 2014 3:48:54)

I can relate to this as I have been studying Flamenco for only a few months and have tried and failed at other guitar playing.
In my 30's I took classical guitar lessons for about a year then lost total interest in it.
Then I heard some Hawaiian slack key music and loved it so I bought a steel string acoustic guitar got frustrated trying to learn it because there isn't much to learn from other than recordings. Sold the acoustic guitar. A few years ago I decided I wanted to get into Jazz inspired by George Benson and Joe Pass. Found out in a few months I didn't like playing a heavy archtop guitar through an amp with a pick. Sold the archtop guitar.
One day I was looking for something to play on my classical and stumbled on Paco Pena's Herencia Latina and I slowly got interested in hard core Flamenco. I bought a flamenco guitar and found a teacher. I think a teacher is a requirement to stay motivated. I stay motivated when I am making steady progress and I don't think it would possible without a good teacher. I also have a passion for the music, culture and the many flamenco techniques many of which I have yet to even be introduced to.
No other genre has this combination of elements and I am almost shocked it isn't more widely played in the U.S.A. I also find taking a break now and then does help and over practicing does not. I am now 57 and hope to be playing this music for the rest of my life.



sig -> RE: How do you stay motivated? (Nov. 17 2014 21:11:45)

I think its tough to stay focused and motivated to do anything well that's difficult if you don't really love what you are doing. There's hardly a day that goes by that I can't wait to play my guitar. This doesn't mean I don't have some down days, days where I have to be a bit more motivated to practice and not just noodle. I think the other trap we can fall into is thinking I've practiced for 2 hours everyday for the past year and still, I'm not as good as so and so. This is very self defeating and allows you to become overwhelmed to the point of not wanting to play anymore. I suspect It has happened to many of us but we have to be realistic about our progress and be happy with the process of learing not just the destination. You mentioned that you are a slow learner, so what, there's no timeline is there? Nobody really cares how fast or slow you are, I'd be more interested if you are really committed to learning.

This is a very difficult subject of study so don't be too hard on yourself, take a break periodically and you might find that you are refreshed and ready to give it another go. Enjoy the journey and the learing of this wonderful art form, listen to some cante, watch some performance vids, find a teacher or some learning materials and challenge yourself and set some realistic goals. I find inspiration right on this foro by all the great players and aficionados that are in residence here. Most are very helpful and many are truly outstanding artists, ask questions and don't be afraid to take some chances.

Sig--



Andy Culpepper -> RE: How do you stay motivated? (Nov. 17 2014 23:00:57)

Go on YouTube and search for "Antonio el Marselles"



etta -> RE: How do you stay motivated? (Nov. 18 2014 0:29:45)

Let's face it; the vast majority of us will not be professional players where compas is the driving element for dancers and singers. Some of us play to hear the music the guitar sends back to us; we can enjoy the pathos of flamenco in many ways. After playing another type of music for many years with various groups, it is now a pleasure to find refuge alone with my guitar. The gigs I play are the typical "artsy farsy" things in the States where I am mostly background for folks who do not know anything about flamenco except believing that a flamenco guitarist makes for a cool party. When I have rarely played for dancers, it has been a disappointment i.e. several beautiful and extremely vain women mechanically moving their bodies with little duende but with Nazi like dedication to compas. If we find ourselves losing interest in the guitar and its music, perhaps it is because we are worrying more about pleasing others rather than enjoying the communication with ourselves and our instruments. Try new stuff, improvise, listen to yourself, have some sherry, have fun, feel, move.



Leñador -> RE: How do you stay motivated? (Nov. 18 2014 2:36:57)

I hear you.
But nothing beats that magic feeling of when you do get to play with pretty good singers and dancers and you're able to keep up just enough to not ruin things.
The only way you get to that is playing with a lot of student dancers and singers to prepare you…..Or one hell of a singin, dancing, guitar plain teacher…...



jmb -> RE: How do you stay motivated? (Nov. 18 2014 10:28:59)

quote:

But nothing beats that magic feeling of when you do get to play with pretty good singers and dancers and you're able to keep up just enough to not ruin things.


I think that's the heart of the matter Leñador, flamenco is a social art from its birth. The feeling of building and share something with other people.

And not only with singers or dancers, there is an important concept whose important meaning has been forgotten in flamenco internacionalization: 'los cabales'. It is not he palo. Cabales also means "The person that understand flamenco and enyjoy it", the "really good aficionado" (This is a forum full of 'cabales'[:D]). They do not necessarily play an intrument or sing. If the singer, dancer or guitarist is surrounded by cabales and other musicians, they feed back the guitarist (or singuer or dancer). This is the great importance of peñas.

There are lots of guitarists that think that the can learn in their rooms, playing 8 hour per day and then someday, play a concert as a professional. May be that's OK por your technique but lack of motivation does not come. But this is impossible for singers or dancers because a solo bulerias claps is boring, but three people clapping bulerias at the same time is music. Flamenco is interacting with other people, flamenco is teaching people, and flamenco is hear and learning from other people. Flamenco is not pedantry or pride and, of course, it is not a mechanic task. Anybody with good musical skills can take part in that 'magic feeling' flamenco but you should enjoy and adjust the thoroughtness.

The concept of solist in flamenco would be similar to red belt in martial arts. If you only are anxious for getting this level, you can't, your are losing the best part and your are lost in a hell of thoroughness.



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