Vicente Amigo (Full Version)

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tk -> Vicente Amigo (Nov. 6 2014 17:33:54)

I think he ruined the sound of his guitar with that pick up mambo jambo.





What do you guys think?



athrane77 -> [Deleted] (Nov. 6 2014 17:41:41)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 10 2015 22:13:22



tele -> RE: Vicente Amigo (Nov. 6 2014 19:03:21)

Well maybe a bit too much treble but otherwise just fine. I just wonder what was wrong with the old style mic [8D] With good playing a guitar or mic quality does not bother me



gj Michelob -> RE: Vicente Amigo (Nov. 7 2014 0:13:18)

I agree with all of the above, but I concur with tk's disenchantment with Vicente's sound as of lately. I believe that we all love many aspects of his playing, virtuosity, creativity, along with the Reyes that he contributed to make legendary, with that characteristic sound he alone used to have, even live, as the acoustics of honey dripping on the strings of a grand piano, with intensity and a lyrical depth I had never heard before or since.

Regrettably, as much as I tried to persuade myself otherwise, I lost him a bit on his last record which, charming as it may be, is but a far cry from the Vicente Amigo that made me fall in love with flamenco guitar, with Tio Arango, Morente and even the orchestrated work such as Amor Dulce Muerte. This new amplification system he is now using is also corroding that elusive measure of perfection in sound and tone that (to my ears) all other guitarists chased but never achieved, as only Vicente did.

And please, do not get me wrong, I don't hold any of it against him. He is obviously trying to reach a larger share of listeners, to impress with his talent. In the process, he will acquire more fans and disappoint a few, but we all love him and respect him for the wonders he is created and shared.



rombsix -> RE: Vicente Amigo (Nov. 7 2014 2:51:15)

The recording was picked up straight from the pick-up without blending the mic signal into it. In real life I'm sure it sounds much better. The audio in this footage is not representative I think. There's no way Vicente would approve of such sound in real life. [:D]

God damn he's a great player! [:D]



Ricardo -> RE: Vicente Amigo (Nov. 7 2014 3:20:36)

Well, lets be honest for a minute. He is basically copying the PDL live show format, that is do a couple of flamenco puro solos, then add other insttrumentation to your arranged falsetas then finally, perhaps. some all out fusion. THe problem is and always was that the guitar does not compete volume wise with other instruments. Only the voice, un amplified, and still, only in an intimate venue.

So as much as they try to find new ways to use monitoring, the guitar is simply a quiet instrument and we are limited as to how loud we can make it heard on stage before bleed and feedback start. In extreme conditions it can be done but the player can not move an INCH or it changes the sound. It is VERY uncomfortable to sit in such a way you can't move the guitar an inch. I have seen both Paco and Vicente move in their chair and get feedback live. In Vicente's case it was always in the same spots in the show. Now he wants even more instruments involved. The trade off is the quaility of tone, but you get expenentially higher volume before feed back and no bleeding etc.

It is a see saw, a lesser of two evils type of decision when you get to touring. Even harder when you have to deal with different sound engineers every show. I have struggled with live sound for years and unfortunately the concept is very simple. If you want pure natural guitar, intimate venue or no monitoring. If you want to hear yourself on stage with other loud instruments, you have no choice but to use a pick up. Pretty simple.

Ricardo



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Vicente Amigo (Nov. 7 2014 4:01:15)

Yeah, damn good player.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Vicente Amigo (Nov. 7 2014 4:04:38)

An article about amplifying acoustic guitars, worth the read. You get an idea of the necessity of trade-offs. I was talking to another player about pickups, and he said, "They're definitely getting better. Well, either that, or my standards are slowly eroding." I have a feeling we get used to the pickup sound over time. But those of us who never have to play with them are horrified when they try to plug in!

http://www.performing-musician.com/pm/jan09/articles/acousticsonstage.htm



Mark2 -> RE: Vicente Amigo (Nov. 7 2014 16:14:19)

Fully agree with Ricardo about the compromise. I've done tons of gigs using a pickup(RMC) blended with a mike. The pickup is needed to project over other instruments when playing single note solos, but I always favored the mike when playing rhythm. I use a volume pedal to bring in the pickup when playing lead. But I was never satisfied with the pickup sound. In fact, it sucks. I was not regularly playing halls like VA or Paco, but clubs. When playing bigger places with pro sound, the results were much the same. When I'd go see Paco, he used a mike, and it sounded great. First time I saw VA, it was the same. He got an amazing sound, but there were two moments in the show where he got really annoying loud ear killing feedback. They were clearly pushing the limits of amplifying his guitar with a mike. the gig I did recently was with pro sound, and I had hoped to get away with just a mike, but it's amazing the lack of volume you get through monitors when playing with a group. I always have found the use of a pickup when playing a flamenco guitar to be very depressing. I mean, your SOUND is everything. A great sound and you play much better. A crappy sound, and you are fighting the whole time. You have a reyes or conde or whatever guitar worth 10k, you put on new strings, and then you plug in a tone destroying pickup? Compromising your sound is so messed up. Electric guitarists fuss over their gear to an obsessive degree-tube amps, pedals, strings, etc. So do horn players, string players, etc. the idea that a flamenco guitarist has to destroy the quality of his sound to be heard is horrible IMO. I think VA is making a huge mistake playing with that sound. I guess many people don't notice, but from this thread it seems many of his greatest fans do. I really love his music and his playing. Really he is my favorite living flamenco guitarist. Unlike some, I think Tierra is a masterpiece. I hope he brings that show to SF. But I hope like heck he doesn't use a pickup.



Rmn -> RE: Vicente Amigo (Nov. 7 2014 21:16:38)



In this video for example (different concert) they did include the sound from the mic. As you can hear there is much difference and I don't understand when people commenting things like: "try to watch him and enjoy, nevermind the sound" etc. that is in my opinion a bit stupid. I mean music is about sound.

This concert is so well visually documented. Very high end visually and really well directed. It's actually a real big shame they didn't make it complete. Even a couple of Db from mic sound would already add so much more body to the sound and make the transmission of the story that Vicente is telling with his music to what it supposed to be



jg7238 -> RE: Vicente Amigo (Nov. 7 2014 21:28:19)

Those rasgueados at the end of his bulerias were total insanity. Crazy!



Ricardo -> RE: Vicente Amigo (Nov. 8 2014 5:04:39)

quote:



In this video for example (different concert) they did include the sound from the mic. As you can hear there is much difference and I don't understand when people commenting things like: "try to watch him and enjoy, nevermind the sound" etc. that is in my opinion a bit stupid. I mean music is about sound.

This concert is so well visually documented. Very high end visually and really well directed. It's actually a real big shame they didn't make it complete. Even a couple of Db from mic sound would already add so much more body to the sound and make the transmission of the story that Vicente is telling with his music to what it supposed to be


Right, adding a few DB on the mic would improve the sound... actually adding a lot of dB and turning off the pick up all together would be amazing!! [:D] At 3:00 you can already hear the feedback creeping.



Sr. Martins -> RE: Vicente Amigo (Nov. 8 2014 13:17:06)

Vicente is very lucky that the feedback only started to be a total dealbreaker after decades..

...

Thankfuly I saw him live about a month before he started with that pickup crap.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Vicente Amigo (Nov. 8 2014 14:50:13)

Here is a blog from someone who has devoted a lot of time and the GDP of a small country to getting a good sound with his DeVoe. I doubt he has succeeded particularly, but at least you can find out about the gear that's available.

https://nylonlive.wordpress.com/

The prettiest amplified nylon sound I've ever heard was... okay, I'm going to get murdered for this--Ottmar Liebert. (for street cred, I will admit that I actually did fall asleep during the show). The guitar sounded great. I even talked to the sound guy about it. He just said it was a lot of work. The stage set up was minimalistic--guitar, bass, tablas, and a DJ!



Rmn -> RE: Vicente Amigo (Nov. 10 2014 10:10:36)

quote:

Right, adding a few DB on the mic would improve the sound... actually adding a lot of dB and turning off the pick up all together would be amazing!! At 3:00 you can already hear the feedback creeping.


Hi Ricardo, I meant to add some signal from recorded microphone to the video in the edit. Just a bit to give it more body like in the video that I posted of Vicente.


quote:

The prettiest amplified nylon sound I've ever heard was... okay, I'm going to get murdered for this--Ottmar Liebert. (for street cred, I will admit that I actually did fall asleep during the show). The guitar sounded great. I even talked to the sound guy about it. He just said it was a lot of work. The stage set up was minimalistic--guitar, bass, tablas, and a DJ!

You can see often that many commercial artists or pop artists have a very good live sound. The use of eq and the compressor (even a bit of overcompression) by sound engineers who are used to doing pop/commercial bands makes that sound. Usually flamenco is being presented in theaters or places where often classical music takes place too. Many engineers working for those kind of halls haven't got that in the fingers or don't have the patient or knowledge to get that kind of sound



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Vicente Amigo (Nov. 10 2014 12:48:45)

Rmn, it is shocking how little flamenco or classical guitarists know about sound (in general, obviously there are exceptions! I am not one of them. I think I need to explore compression.). You will often find rock guitarists who know more about their gadgets then playing the music.... :)



gj Michelob -> RE: Vicente Amigo (Nov. 10 2014 14:22:51)

quote:

In this video for example (different concert) they did include the sound from the mic. As you can hear there is much difference ...




Very good example, RMN.

I love the sound he had in these examples (which I believe are ratehr representative of his earlier choice of amplification)






Sr. Martins -> RE: Vicente Amigo (Nov. 10 2014 14:37:03)

He's already using braces on his teeth, I think he would be open minded enough to the point of using in-ear monitoring while keeping the sound 100% microphone instead if keeping the floor monitors and adding a pickup.



Rmn -> RE: Vicente Amigo (Nov. 10 2014 19:57:43)

quote:

Rmn, it is shocking how little flamenco or classical guitarists know about sound (in general, obviously there are exceptions! I am not one of them. I think I need to explore compression.). You will often find rock guitarists who know more about their gadgets then playing the music.... :)

[:D]

quote:

Very good example, RMN.

Thanks gj Michelob. Good examples from you too



aloysius -> RE: Vicente Amigo (Nov. 11 2014 9:47:48)

I hope this isn't becoming a trend - I saw Jose Antonio Rodriguez here in Adelaide with his trio a couple of months back. I wasn't close enough to the stage to see his set-up but I'm pretty sure it was 100% pickup. The sound was absolutely horrendous. It wasn't due to the local techs, as he brought his own sound tech with him. It wasn't due to the venue, as the first half was led by Melbourne flamenco guitarist Kieren Ray (awesome player) with a beautifully amplified guitar, just a mike. Antonio was louder - way too loud. A noisy venue is one thing but a recital style performance with a quiet audience doesn't have to be as loud as Motorhead.

I guess he's probably had too many bad experiences and just went with the easy option, especially with the extreme volumes he seems to want. Even though his current music isn't really to my taste, it's still a pity to see a beautifully handcrafted instrument, played by a great and highly original player, reduced to a sound that could have been a casio keyboard.



Pimientito -> RE: Vicente Amigo (Nov. 11 2014 10:55:19)

quote:

The recording was picked up straight from the pick-up without blending the mic signal into it. In real life I'm sure it sounds much better. The audio in this footage is not representative I think


I agree 100 per cent. I saw Vicente doing this show earlier this summer at an outdoor theatre in Fuengirola and the live sound was great. I think they use the pick up feed for the video because there is no wind noise, volume changes, feed back etc. The live show sounded great.

...and those rasgueos are crazy!!!!!



gj Michelob -> RE: Vicente Amigo (Nov. 12 2014 15:05:31)

Now... here one can really hear that hideous, cheap, sound that brings the plastic out of the nylon, in Vicente's Manuel Reyes.




Escribano -> RE: Vicente Amigo (Nov. 12 2014 15:11:14)

quote:

I think they use the pick up feed for the video because there is no wind noise, volume changes, feed back etc.


Always a good idea to take a master audio feed from the desk when officially filming gigs, especially with multiple cameras.



JasonM -> RE: Vicente Amigo (Dec. 19 2014 18:48:46)

I read that Vicente had surgery in his lower back a few years ago for herniated disc. A lifetime of playing in the legs crossed position probably not good for the back. Hurts mine too. So that could be one reason for the pickup, allowing him some freedom of movement.

I was disappointed with the sound in this concert too, especially because its a full concert on YouTube! Maybe the outdoor/water back drop limited acoustics of recording. I thought that he has a full time sound board operator tour with him. A girl. Maybe not...

Also, his playing and energy is a bit lackluster here too. Maybe he was having an off day or was in pain? Can't expect him to always be on without a lot of err.. Coke? Jk. Azules y Corinto is my fav bulerias as of late and this comcert wasnt the most exciting performance. I love Vicente , so I don't care about his pickup or his teeth(seems a little self conscious about them) .

For this album, I was disappointed a bit lime many. But I remind myself that Vicente has put out a TON mind blowing compositions. He gets pressured from the record company to put out another album. That's got to be tuff to do. And I think he did great with Tierra. There are a couple of good ones on this album. I prefer listening to him playing the songs live without the flute and violin because he steps up the tempo and fills in the violin parts with some bad ass guitar solos. Has a lot more energy. At any rate, Vicente is one of the couple guitarist that keeps me inspired these days.

Went off on a little VA rant there. Sorry



Sr. Martins -> RE: Vicente Amigo (Dec. 19 2014 19:05:00)

Seems like the pain is coming from his teeth.

The "not-so-exciting" playing might have to do with that disconfort but remember that his guitar sound has absolutely no body and very narrow dynamics, that might be the reason.



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