RE: Flamenco and 'The Modes'? (Full Version)

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Guest -> RE: Flamenco and 'The Modes'? (Oct. 20 2014 21:45:41)

Thanks for that info
Seem to be two applications in learning modes ?
Derivative - modes derived from one scale ie Cmajor - D Dorian etc
Parallel - modes using the same tonic - C Dorian - C Phrygian etc

Agree the parallel certainly displays the differences in sound of the modes more readily
Where derivative may help in chord/scale relationships in a given key ( and any modulation )

That's the way I'm understanding the two views discussed here anyway



Sr. Martins -> RE: Flamenco and 'The Modes'? (Oct. 20 2014 22:17:16)

Yes Alval, thats the idea.

You should also know how to "tonicize" the modes without V7ing them..rhythm is important here, the bass note movement, etc.

Then you realize that modes and chords can be the same thing in functional/tonal harmony.



Guest -> RE: Flamenco and 'The Modes'? (Oct. 20 2014 22:55:01)

For some from my generation the first encounter with modes possibly came from this book (Mahavishnu)
Bought the book in 1977 - tattered and used but still with me
Shows both derived and some parallel modes
Thought I'd upload it as a reference - happy to tab/GP some positions - annotate some chord voicings - though that won't explain the how or why - and the names get forgotten after a while :-)



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Sr. Martins -> RE: Flamenco and 'The Modes'? (Oct. 20 2014 23:14:53)

I find that a LOT of people get to the point of understanding the modes but then they can't do anything useful with them because they mix two different concepts:

- Key Signature

- The mode itself


A key signature in it's basic major or minor presentation will give you the 1234567 degrees plain and simple BUT... thinking of a key signature when trying to apply modes is like shooting yourself in the foot because most people will think of the tonic as either the major/relative minor of the key signature.

It's right to say "I want to sound D dorian, my key signature is C major".

It's "wrong" to say (and think) "I want to sound D dorian, Iam going to play C major".


This misconception comes mainly from people who learnt to read music since the beggining. As Ricardo said, these people often relate everything to either major or minor (basic key signature) instead of thinking of the key signature as only a collection of notes with no particular order.

They will have the order that your music implies, not what the key signature looks like.



Guest -> RE: Flamenco and 'The Modes'? (Oct. 20 2014 23:57:56)

I agree
some modal music doesn't fit into a western based key system - particularly if uses both maj and minor thirds - ie what is described above as synthetic modes - where it is more an aural application as opposed to a western theoretical one -
Maybe this where flamenco is difficult to explain ( unlike Jazz etc ) - unless your ricardo or yourself - found the Bach resolving to a Phrygian tonic comment gold though -



Sr. Martins -> RE: Flamenco and 'The Modes'? (Oct. 21 2014 0:21:18)

Think of theory as a map that you draw along as you travel. It's purpose is to make you get back to places you've been before and to figure out ways to explore new territories (if you wish to).


Theory that you read from somebody else is just like a map.... it's just as useful as what you can make out of it. If your understanding of it doesn't get you anywhere you want to go, it's just a paper with some drawings, not really a map (at least to you).



britguy -> RE: Flamenco and 'The Modes'? (Oct. 21 2014 13:00:17)

quote:

Thought I'd upload it as a reference - happy to tab/GP some positions - annotate some chord voicings - though that won't explain the how or why - and the names get forgotten after a while :-)


These examples are interesting, because - if I read it correctly as a lay person - then if I play from C to C and D to D and E to E , etc, on the piano, with no sharps or flats - then I am playing Ionian, Phrygian and Lydian modes respectively.

Is that the case? Or is this interpretation too simplistic?



Sr. Martins -> RE: Flamenco and 'The Modes'? (Oct. 21 2014 13:07:42)

quote:

Is that the case? Or is this interpretation too simplistic?


Ionian, Dorian and Phrygian.


To hear the modes you'll have to play C ionian, C dorian and C phrygian. It's the same thing you would play in C, D and E but instead of moving the root you keep it in C. If you do it like you said you'll probably just hear C major.



britguy -> RE: Flamenco and 'The Modes'? (Oct. 21 2014 13:13:22)

quote:

If you do it like you said you'll probably just hear C major.


You mean if I play from D to D and E to E , with no sharps or flats, then I'll hear C major???

Don't think so. . .



Sr. Martins -> RE: Flamenco and 'The Modes'? (Oct. 21 2014 13:20:36)

You're confusing things.


Play C D E F G A B C to hear Ionian.

Play C D Eb F G A Bb C to hear Dorian.

Play C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C to hear Phrygian.



Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco and 'The Modes'? (Oct. 21 2014 13:47:00)

quote:

ORIGINAL: britguy

quote:

If you do it like you said you'll probably just hear C major.


You mean if I play from D to D and E to E , with no sharps or flats, then I'll hear C major???

Don't think so. . .


He means the modes are all relative to the major key if you play them in that order. In order to hear a mode and experience the "Mood" it creates you really need a bass note as the reference point. In other words if you play a D bass note and play the scale above it on piano CDEFGABC...it still sounds like dorian mode. Same if you run EFGABCDE over the D bass, still dorian. You can play any sequence of notes but it is truly the Tonic Drone or bass or home chord that provided a modal music context. If you conversly play the open chords for La Bamba (C-F-G7), then run the notes DEFGABCD...you are not hearing D dorian at all, it is just C major key. So you need some sort of relationship to experience the modal sounds properly.

Modes themselves are just scales, vs modal music which needs a context. Remember also if you stack third intervals of a scale (C-E-G etc) you construct chords. So if you stack enough different notes you create a scale. A G13 chord is simply the G mixolydian mode by itself. Playing a sequence of different simple chords is doing the same thing, implying a scale or mode collectively. So the musical environment or context is super important vs just playing scales up and down.

Ricardo



Guest -> RE: Flamenco and 'The Modes'? (Oct. 21 2014 14:30:32)

If you have a piano handy this may help
Excuse the poor quality image - but should give you the idea along with what is being said





Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



britguy -> RE: Flamenco and 'The Modes'? (Oct. 21 2014 17:28:38)

quote:

If you have a piano handy this may help
Excuse the poor quality image - but should give you the idea along with what is being said


Thanks AlVal. I think I can understand it much better with the notation examples.

Am I correct in assuming that each individual mode is a function of the respective intervals between the notes?

e.g. Dorian mode will always have a flattened third and seventh, regardless of what the root note is?

Likewise, Phrygian will always have flattened second, third, sixth and seventh?



Sr. Martins -> RE: Flamenco and 'The Modes'? (Oct. 21 2014 17:49:29)

Yes britguy, besides the funny names they (the modes) are just "formulas" like the examples you gave.

That's what those 1234567 with "b" and "#" mean anyway.



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