Flamenco Sound (Full Version)

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WGuitar -> Flamenco Sound (Oct. 16 2014 23:45:44)

Hello my friends

Just wondering since all my flamenco practice so far been on my classical guitar.. I'm getting an OKish flamenco sound ..well.. to my ears. not convinced with it though which should be explainable .. this is no flamenco guitar I'm practicing on after all.

Yet that makes me wonder.. if you had to give a percentage, how much of the flamenco sound comes from the guitar and how much comes from the player?

Mind you, say one of the members here (all of you play way better than me I'm sure) grabbed a classical guitar and played some flamenco on it, how much flamenco sound could you get out of it?!

Thanks



por medio -> RE: Flamenco Sound (Oct. 16 2014 23:52:59)

I still play with a classical guitar. You can get a decent sound out of it if your right hand is good. But it will never give me that extra edge that I crave from a real flamenco guitar every now and then. Mine is a very good classical guitar though, and crap classical guitar will really be poor.



Sr. Martins -> RE: Flamenco Sound (Oct. 17 2014 0:00:01)

In general, you might be getting more boomy bass and less sharp trebles.

Some classicals work better than others (for flamenco) and some flamenca's are crap too.



Don't worry, just keep playing with what you have.



WGuitar -> RE: Flamenco Sound (Oct. 17 2014 0:52:44)

Thanks for the input..

mm.. I guess as my right hand gets better, I'll start to sound more flamenco on my classical.



Sr. Martins -> RE: Flamenco Sound (Oct. 17 2014 0:57:20)

quote:

mm.. I guess as my right hand gets better, I'll start to sound more flamenco on my classical.



Iam 100% sure of that. You'll be amazed in a couple of years. (keep your classical for future reference) [;)]



WGuitar -> RE: Flamenco Sound (Oct. 17 2014 1:18:21)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

quote:

mm.. I guess as my right hand gets better, I'll start to sound more flamenco on my classical.



Iam 100% sure of that. You'll be amazed in a couple of years. (keep your classical for future reference) [;)]



Thanks, I will.



Sr. Martins -> RE: Flamenco Sound (Oct. 17 2014 1:41:28)

Make sure that your nails aren't getting in the way of your sound/technique.


I find that the best way to file them is flat (almost) with no angles. The end result should be a nail shape that goes along the shape of the tip of the flesh.


Glass nail files are great because they are washable (I wet it before I use it), don't seem to wear out and they give a smooth finish... well, at least the second one I got (5€ cost).


If you do crazy exaggerated ramps with your nails and/or file away the sides of the nails, that won't help you.



WGuitar -> RE: Flamenco Sound (Oct. 17 2014 2:11:09)

Thanks for the advice.

That should be a part of the problem too.. Additionally, my nails grow bent great deal. It drives me crazy.. could that be fixed somehow?

And I should keep the thumb nail a bit longer too, right?

Appreciate your help. Thats very kind of you



SephardRick -> RE: Flamenco Sound (Oct. 17 2014 13:59:40)

quote:

how much flamenco sound could you get out of it


If I might add the setup on the classical guitar is very important for playing flamenco. I use Kenny Hill's method at this link:

http://www.hillguitar.com/website/news/articles/classical_guitar_setup.html

I have only one flamenco guitar. When it is in repair, I have three very different classical guitars I use for flamenco: a Vicente Sanchis, a Ramirez, and a Hauser copy. As long a the setup is low and strung with Luthier 20 or LaBella 820's I continue my daily flamenco practice on them without a playability problem.

So, if the classical guitar is setup up right, the flamenco tone is there to be harvested to my ear's appetite. IMHO



tri7/5 -> RE: Flamenco Sound (Oct. 17 2014 15:25:15)

You're missing a lot IMO. A good flamenco guitar is something to be experienced and totally different from a classical. Its like trying to play rock on a jazz hollowbody. You're never going to quite get there.



Paul Magnussen -> RE: Flamenco Sound (Oct. 17 2014 18:51:13)

quote:

Additionally, my nails grow bent great deal. It drives me crazy.. could that be fixed somehow?


I may have posted this before, but here it is again: I originally wrote it for Guitar International in the ’80s, but the subject come up so regularly that I saved it off:

The solution to this is easy, but almost nobody seems to know it. I owe my knowledge to an article by the late Peter Sensier, in the old BMG magazine. My nails are very hooked indeed, but, using this method I have had no problem for 30+ years. Unfortunately, it is easier to demonstrate than describe.

Hold your hand horizontally, palm down. Then the usual way to hold the file is vertically. But instead, hold the file horizontally too, so that it's parallel to your hand. The basic idea is to file your nails this way, from underneath; then the resulting cross-section must be flat, because the nail-file is flat.

There are a few wrinkles:

1) You will need to tilt the file towards you a bit, i.e. about 15˚ towards the conventional position.

2) You will also need (if you play off the left side of your nails, as most people do, Presti/Lagoya excepted) to tilt your hand to the left a bit, so that nails are shorter on the left side than the right.

3) When finished, round off the nails with the file in the conventional position to remove the resulting knife-edge.

4) Be careful not to cut the quick of your nails with the file — and especially, don't use an emery-board!

Hope this helps.



WGuitar -> RE: Flamenco Sound (Oct. 17 2014 21:37:34)

Thanks alot..

Rick, great resource thanks for sharing. Didn't know actually that the bass and treble need to be almost the same height at the saddle for flamenco. That's not the case with my guitar, I got abit more than 1 mm difference between the two at the saddle.

I remind myself all the time not to worry about those kinda details when I practice but there you go. It doesn't seem to work apparently 'til I get me some nice flamenco guitar someday! Cant afford buying one any time soon unfortunately!

Paul, thank you so much. I'm trying this for sure, can't wait.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Flamenco Sound (Oct. 18 2014 8:02:06)

I dont think you can divide the sound up in guitar versus player.
Its a whole that goes together.
The flamenco guitar and the classical guitar are two very different beasts. They are made for different musical esthetics and they funcion differently. You bring the sound out of them in different ways. Classical tecnique sounds weak and dull on a oldschool flamenca blanca and flamenco tecnique doesnt sound on a classical. It cant bring out what you do.
In order to learn the flamenco tecnique you need a guitar that will help you in that process. An instrument that will teach you when you are doing things right. When you have learnt that (or at least soem of it[8D]) Then its you, the player brings out what the instrument has to offer.
You can go a good way on a classical. Learn some basic things, but things like response, sweet spot and pulsation are different from the real thing



withinity -> RE: Flamenco Sound (Oct. 18 2014 8:08:29)

To do list: Get yourself a Blanca , it makes all the difference!



Sr. Martins -> RE: Flamenco Sound (Oct. 18 2014 12:42:13)

I assume that the original poster has a not so expensive classical.

What's the main difference between an inexpensive classical vs inexpensive flamenca?

The yellow color.



WGuitar -> RE: Flamenco Sound (Oct. 18 2014 16:00:06)

That makes good sense


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

What's the main difference between an inexpensive classical vs inexpensive flamenca?

The yellow color.


Thats nearly how I see it too.

I'd really wanna know your take on this guys cos it matters alot to me..
What I'm thinking is, I got two options at the moment, either buying a yamaha cg172sf now (its all I can afford) or save up for a nicer flamenca and continue practicing on my inexpensive classical

Two questions resulting here..

*would you think I should go for that yamaha or I'm better off with playing on my classical for now so I save more cash for a better flamenca?

*another thing, i find myself drawn more to the tone of the flamenca negra (PDL sound) more so than the traditional blanca sound! Now should that be taken into consideration whether I'm buying that yamaha or something else maybe later?
As dumb as it may sound.. my classical, excessive sustain aside, sounds a little like a negra to my ears, so Im finding it OK for now!! [8D]



Sr. Martins -> RE: Flamenco Sound (Oct. 18 2014 17:02:56)

Without experiencing your current guitar it's pretty hard to tell you anything about that.

IMO, given that the neck is straight and there's nothing wrong with your classical, I think you should lower the saddle to a bit more than 2,5mm on the bass side and a bit less than that on the treble side. Put a capo at the first fret before you do this.. if your nut isn't properly cut it might mess up your measurements.

That should be enough to kill the boom while giving you a more percussive sound and nicer right hand action.



eitanfar -> RE: Flamenco Sound (Oct. 27 2014 11:02:59)

I personally think that it's up to your level of playing flamenco technique.
I consider myself a beginner, but I do have some experience already. I started out on a classical (Raimundo 130), since that's what I had at home.
At first, learning the basics of some of the techniques (rasgeo, tremolo, picado, etc.) worked almost as well on a classical guitar, since my practice sessions were very technical, and the sound didn't matter that much.
Nowadays, I'm playing some more advanced stuff, and I really started to feel the need to switch. I recently bought a blanca (Prudencio Saez 22 - very affordable by the way), and was really impressed with the difference in sound, and the better playability. It's not just the lower action, but also the weight reduction.
I would suggest that if you're really just beginning to learn flamenco techniques, stay with you classical until you're:
1. Getting better, and feel the need for a better sound
2. Sure that you're going to stick to flamenco playing (if you quit, you will not have wasted the money [;)])

Hope that helps [:D]



britguy -> RE: Flamenco Sound (Oct. 27 2014 12:29:08)

quote:

and especially, don't use an emery-board
.

Yes you did post this before, Paul.

And I was puzzled by the 'no emery board' note.

What's the problem with emery boards?

(I also had some written communication with Peter Sensier, via BMG back in the 1950's).



Paul Magnussen -> RE: Flamenco Sound (Oct. 27 2014 20:13:59)

quote:

What's the problem with emery boards?


It’s extra-easy to cut the quick of your nails on the edges.

Ol’ Peter/Pepe was a very interesting bloke. He was also a luthier, and he repolished the table of my first flamenco guitar. He was a considerable scholar too: I remember his sorting Jack Duarte once about what was and wasn’t possible on the Renaissance harp.



britguy -> RE: Flamenco Sound (Oct. 27 2014 21:17:49)

quote:

Ol’ Peter/Pepe was a very interesting bloke.


Yes indeed.

He wrote many interesting pieces in BMG in the late fifties. Several on nail care. . .

Also heard him and Dorothy (Dorita y Pepe) numerous times on the old BBC radio "Guitar Club" programmes.

Never had the chance to meet him, but he always replied to my letters (no emails in those days. )



davidheis_24 -> RE: Flamenco Sound (Oct. 28 2014 0:34:58)

player 85% / guitar 15%



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Flamenco Sound (Oct. 28 2014 6:52:08)

quote:

player 85% / guitar 15%


Thats true if the player has a guitar that doesnt limit him/her



Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco Sound (Oct. 28 2014 11:52:24)

quote:

another thing, i find myself drawn more to the tone of the flamenca negra (PDL sound) more so than the traditional blanca sound!


Are you 100% sure about that?

http://youtu.be/k6Nw0Hm_wTM
http://youtu.be/0UxHi3SIrPg
http://youtu.be/eVf2YXhvLmA
http://youtu.be/5u3bOztMH7o
http://youtu.be/zEhA5tu0ee0

Point being...Paco has been into the blanca sound throughout his career...no video of him with his devoe blanca, Carillo PDL model, or with various singers including the short bits of video we see with paco accompanying Camaron in the studio for his final album with a blanca....but you get the idea.

Ricardo



Cervantes -> RE: Flamenco Sound (Oct. 28 2014 16:18:57)

I think its entirely possible to practice on classical guitar.
I just did that while on vacation because I had to rent a guitar.
You just won't get the same sound of a flamenco guitar with the string buzz, edginess and less sustain. And you can't play Golpes with installing a tap plate.
Also with the strings being higher on a classical your finger positions will be different.



jmb -> [Deleted] (Oct. 31 2014 9:31:38)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Oct. 31 2014 9:32:33



jmb -> RE: Flamenco Sound (Oct. 31 2014 9:32:46)

In my humble opinión, it is not a question of percentage. There are three very important issues:

1. Technique. I've seen player in youtube that can do a flamenco score perfectly, but a few techniques or bad habits ruins the sound. Solution: Training, good teachers and discipline.

2. The sound feeling and knowledge. That is not just a technique question. Forget it. It is usual in Spain the conpet 'tocar gitano' (Gipsy playing). I have seen gypsies in Madrid with classical guitars and a basic technique getting amazing sounds. It is like blues... There are people that have the blues sound in blood. Solution: Listen and listen to good flamenco players, compás control and flamenco environment (if you can) . Also understand the flamenco from the point of view of the singer. Be a good aficionado as as Morente said!

3. Guitar. I am sure that Jimmy Hendrix could play rock with a sitar. But obviously with a good Fender he sounded really good and it is more convenient. Solution: a feasible flamenco guitar.

I’m sure that you know where is your actual weakness.



WGuitar -> RE: Flamenco Sound (Nov. 1 2014 21:52:15)

Thanks for the new feedback guys. Very helpful
I'll keep on using my classical for now

@Ricardo, thanks for the information. Wasn't aware of that, tbh being a fairly newcomer to flamenco. Glad you let me know that about Paco

Cheers guys!



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