SOLEA ACCOMPANIMENT CHALLENGE!!!!!! (Full Version)

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Leñador -> SOLEA ACCOMPANIMENT CHALLENGE!!!!!! (Oct. 1 2014 22:33:30)

Here's what I propose.

Each contestant will submit a "tablao format" Solea. The individual parts will be pre-determined and discussed in this thread. The letras will be pre-determined and possibly even the escobilla IE we choose a dancers escobilla from youtube to accompany.
Some input from the more experienced accompanists about the format would be great.
My thoughts would be it's something like this, but this will change depending on input:
Intro falseta - how ever many compases you like but must have a clear ending
Dancer entrance & llamada - X amount of compas
Letra - Exact to be chosen
Falseta - Whatever you like.
llamada - X amount of compas
escobillla - Picked from a dancer on youtube
Subida
Bulerias to end...



tele -> RE: SOLEA ACCOMPANIMENT CHALLENGE!!!!!! (Oct. 2 2014 8:18:12)

That's some advanced stuff... Maybe the dance accompaniment and even the outro bulerias could be optional, or perhaps everybody here knows their stuff. Already a good guitarist and cantaor duo for solea is difficult to execute but which is in my opinion one of the fundamental things for a real flamenco guitarist to know how to play. Would be also cool if the player could choose the cante track, however i don't think there are so many cante only tracks available. Ai ai ai-ii[:)]



Escribano -> RE: SOLEA ACCOMPANIMENT CHALLENGE!!!!!! (Oct. 2 2014 8:32:21)

If you get enough interest, I'll create a section in the Challenges part of the forum. Good luck.



ronney2s -> RE: SOLEA ACCOMPANIMENT CHALLENGE!!!!!! (Oct. 2 2014 11:07:04)

this seem prety advanced i was thinkin maybe something for solo guitarra , solea or fandango or any thing else



guitarbuddha -> RE: SOLEA ACCOMPANIMENT CHALLENGE!!!!!! (Oct. 2 2014 11:12:19)

Three words.

COMPAS SWAP SHOP.

Yeah ??????

D.



Leñador -> RE: SOLEA ACCOMPANIMENT CHALLENGE!!!!!! (Oct. 2 2014 13:54:06)

It looks advanced but it's really not. I wasn't thinking to have the singing on the entry, so not an accapella track or anything. I was thinking everyone has to use the same letra for easy reference/checking purposes in judging, like, "yup, he hit all the right chords in all the right spots for that letra". As for the escobilla, you can YouTube "solea escobilla" and there's many many examples, if you just play one of those you won't be wrong but if you can compliment the dancers rhythm even better.
Other then the letra all the parts of this are available in beginner flamenco books, Juan Martin Dennis Koster etc...
I can even post a video of the chord changes for the letra.
I really like the idea of getting people to start thinking in terms of parts instead of just falseta compas falseta compas done....



tele -> RE: SOLEA ACCOMPANIMENT CHALLENGE!!!!!! (Oct. 2 2014 14:32:27)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leñador

It looks advanced but it's really not. I wasn't thinking to have the singing on the entry, so not an accapella track or anything. I was thinking everyone has to use the same letra for easy reference/checking purposes in judging, like, "yup, he hit all the right chords in all the right spots for that letra". As for the escobilla, you can YouTube "solea escobilla" and there's many many examples, if you just play one of those you won't be wrong but if you can compliment the dancers rhythm even better.
Other then the letra all the parts of this are available in beginner flamenco books, Juan Martin Dennis Koster etc...
I can even post a video of the chord changes for the letra.
I really like the idea of getting people to start thinking in terms of parts instead of just falseta compas falseta compas done....


Personally I think it's just as easy to hear for any cante accompaniment if it sounds correct or not vs checking based on one song, after all there's not so many chords and variations for solea accompanying. What I don't like about the dancer accompanying part is that(maybe I'm wrong) not so many flamenco guitarists here play for dancers and they should learn it especially for this challenge, coming out perhaps with poorer results as it would be a fresh skill and perhaps even a thing not interesting for them. Any thoughts?



Leñador -> RE: SOLEA ACCOMPANIMENT CHALLENGE!!!!!! (Oct. 2 2014 15:23:52)

What I'm thinking about the cante part is we pick one letra that sveryone will use because the entry itself will not have any actual cante in it. Just the proper chord changes to accompany the cante we choose. This way you don't need any software to "dub" in the cante and since everyone is using the same letra it's easy to see if they did the right chord changes at the right time.

For the escobilla, EVERYONE should know/learn a solea escobilla whether you ever want to accompany dance or not. Learning how to embellish something is also I believe something everyone should be learning. So if your a beginner, disregard the dancers steps and just play a simple escobilla, it's not wrong. But if your good you can add some rhythms and embellishments to compliment.

This guys got all the parts and then some tabbed out if your a real beginner.
http://youtu.be/1xwRA2yNvhk



tele -> RE: SOLEA ACCOMPANIMENT CHALLENGE!!!!!! (Oct. 2 2014 19:31:02)

Why not record it with cante, participants could just use for example any program like audacity for that? After all it's boring to listen to the tracks without the singer and some fine details can be missed.

There was some accompanying playing with cante by members of the foro in the past, tangos if i remember correctly... Not sure if it was a challenge.

Maybe the participants could choose if have their tracks with cante or guitar only?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leñador

What I'm thinking about the cante part is we pick one letra that sveryone will use because the entry itself will not have any actual cante in it. Just the proper chord changes to accompany the cante we choose. This way you don't need any software to "dub" in the cante and since everyone is using the same letra it's easy to see if they did the right chord changes at the right time.

For the escobilla, EVERYONE should know/learn a solea escobilla whether you ever want to accompany dance or not. Learning how to embellish something is also I believe something everyone should be learning. So if your a beginner, disregard the dancers steps and just play a simple escobilla, it's not wrong. But if your good you can add some rhythms and embellishments to compliment.

This guys got all the parts and then some tabbed out if your a real beginner.
http://youtu.be/1xwRA2yNvhk



Leñador -> RE: SOLEA ACCOMPANIMENT CHALLENGE!!!!!! (Oct. 2 2014 20:34:05)

I can do that, and you can do that. But, to many people here, the idea of figuring out how to get this cante acapella track in the middle of their song on correct time may as we'll be magic. I agree that WITH cante would be more interesting to listen to, logistically I don't see people being able to handle it.
The cante challenge before had a few compas of palmas to get you oriented and then the cante. No one was trying to wedge a letra in the middle of a long 3:00 track.



ronney2s -> RE: SOLEA ACCOMPANIMENT CHALLENGE!!!!!! (Oct. 2 2014 20:50:46)

i think some one should open a poll and suggest some palos and wether to do solo or accompaniment , im sure alot of people might want to participait but dont know how to accompany dance or cante , or simply not interested like some one said earlier



Leñador -> RE: SOLEA ACCOMPANIMENT CHALLENGE!!!!!! (Oct. 2 2014 21:15:28)

Alright, I'm willing to organize the whole thing if it's an accompaniment challenge. I suggest solea as it's accessible to beginners, a challenge is a GREAT way for beginners to be introduced to the idea of accompaniment, without a dancer or singer yelling at you.

My two cents, if your trying to learn flamenco and have no interest in accompanying your missing the ENTIRE POINT of flamenco. It's not just pretty "spanishy" sounding music, it's a language and if your just mimicking the parts without understand the intent or purpose you're the equivalent of a talking parrot.

Solo guitar piece challenge I'm out..........



timoteo -> RE: SOLEA ACCOMPANIMENT CHALLENGE!!!!!! (Oct. 3 2014 2:15:57)

quote:

i think some one should open a poll and suggest some palos and wether to do solo or accompaniment , im sure alot of people might want to participait but dont know how to accompany dance or cante , or simply not interested like some one said earlier


That's not the way it works. If you want to run your own challenge, then fine go ahead and take your own poll, pick your own palo, etc. But if Leñador wants to run a solea accompaniment challenge, then that's what it's going to be. The guy who does all the work gets to make the choices. I'm sure he would appreciate some help and/or suggestions for how to conduct the challenge, but if you're not interested you don't have to participate. Your choices are lead, follow, or get out of the way.



tele -> RE: SOLEA ACCOMPANIMENT CHALLENGE!!!!!! (Oct. 3 2014 10:00:15)

You're right , I just don't have even a mic but I know how to do it in audacity.

Accompanying even a bit is something everyone should know and maybe this challenge will introduce some people to it... I still think the dance and buleria part should be optional


quote:

ORIGINAL: Leñador

I can do that, and you can do that. But, to many people here, the idea of figuring out how to get this cante acapella track in the middle of their song on correct time may as we'll be magic. I agree that WITH cante would be more interesting to listen to, logistically I don't see people being able to handle it.
The cante challenge before had a few compas of palmas to get you oriented and then the cante. No one was trying to wedge a letra in the middle of a long 3:00 track.



Andy Culpepper -> RE: SOLEA ACCOMPANIMENT CHALLENGE!!!!!! (Oct. 3 2014 12:09:54)

What if you record a video of yourself live accompanying a dancer? Does there need to be cante?



estebanana -> RE: SOLEA ACCOMPANIMENT CHALLENGE!!!!!! (Oct. 3 2014 12:48:35)

How do you do it without a dancer?



Sr. Martins -> RE: SOLEA ACCOMPANIMENT CHALLENGE!!!!!! (Oct. 3 2014 12:55:58)

I think I can pull this off without a guitar player.



Andy Culpepper -> RE: SOLEA ACCOMPANIMENT CHALLENGE!!!!!! (Oct. 3 2014 12:56:04)

Maybe two separate categories, one for accompanying dance, one for accompanying a cante track (or live cantaor) like we did with the Solea por Buleria before.
There are lots of recordings of solea cante a palo seco.

Check out "A La Fragua El tio Monje" by Potito and the first 2:30 of "Lloran al Lao Mio" by Montse Cortes for a couple.



estebanana -> RE: SOLEA ACCOMPANIMENT CHALLENGE!!!!!! (Oct. 3 2014 13:05:11)

quote:

This way you don't need any software to "dub" in the cante and since everyone is using the same letra it's easy to see if they did the right chord changes at the right time.


With out a singer to push and pull the where they enter and the chords really actually go, you can only do a robotic sort or imitation of accomaniment. Where good singers come in an out of singing for dancers is really tricky, they will throw in lots of details you can't accompany unless you really have a singer.

It's like you can know all the parts the guitarist is supposed to know, but putting them together with a dancer and singer is a whole other thing. Because a dancer might change how they want to enter the escobilla in the moment, in stead of giving slow steps to mark a compas, they might just take off at high speed and you have to find the place of entry with the guitar. That is the kind of stuff that separates those who play all the parts from those who really can accompany.

If you want to show you know all the parts of the structure of a danced solea, it's cool, but you have to remember that just because someone can polish that and make it sound cool does not mean a dancer and singer will go for that. They might just decide to leave you in the dust and then your fancy playing means nothing. Accompaniment in large part is about survival when the territory gets shaky. And the big kids will mess with you to get you in your game.



Andy Culpepper -> RE: SOLEA ACCOMPANIMENT CHALLENGE!!!!!! (Oct. 3 2014 13:14:05)

I agree with Stephen but it really helps for us non-Spanish people to learn the structure and chord changes by studying and accompanying recorded music.
This challenge would probably be more aimed to beginner/intermediate accompanists rather than a Ricardo or Jason.

The challenge back in 2009 where Jason got Felix de Lola to record a really simple, straightforward Solea por Buleria for us to accompany was hugely beneficial to everyone who participated I think.



estebanana -> RE: SOLEA ACCOMPANIMENT CHALLENGE!!!!!! (Oct. 3 2014 14:05:07)

I can see how you can make project out of a Music minus one scene with cante and playing the changes to it. It's the same as listening to records or CD's and playing along. But without a live dancer...hmmmm I'm not sold on how much that delivers.



ronney2s -> RE: SOLEA ACCOMPANIMENT CHALLENGE!!!!!! (Oct. 3 2014 14:07:28)

quote:

That's not the way it works. If you want to run your own challenge, then fine go ahead and take your own poll, pick your own palo, etc. But if Leñador wants to run a solea accompaniment challenge, then that's what it's going to be. The guy who does all the work gets to make the choices. I'm sure he would appreciate some help and/or suggestions for how to conduct the challenge, but if you're not interested you don't have to participate. Your choices are lead, follow, or get out of the way.



thats not what Escribano said . so any one can go ahead and start a challange if people are not interested ? doesnt make any sense , and dont worry just relax i will get out of the way if im not interesed



Leñador -> RE: SOLEA ACCOMPANIMENT CHALLENGE!!!!!! (Oct. 3 2014 14:14:51)

I get what your saying Bananasan, I'm just trying to get the beginner/intermediate out of the solo guitar, flaseta obsessed, picado box. Your right, accompaniment is all about thinking on your feet but if you've got none of the components down to begin with you won't even know the dancer is effing with you.

PS I know the entries will be boring to listen too, it's just a kind off exercise in putting pieces together properly.



Escribano -> RE: SOLEA ACCOMPANIMENT CHALLENGE!!!!!! (Oct. 3 2014 14:28:13)

Let this thread run its course and then see where we are.



tele -> RE: SOLEA ACCOMPANIMENT CHALLENGE!!!!!! (Oct. 3 2014 18:35:45)

My suggestion is cante track and maybe simple instructions how to put it on play and record with the guitar at the same time in audacity for example. I'm not sure how was the last cante challenge executed?



Leñador -> RE: SOLEA ACCOMPANIMENT CHALLENGE!!!!!! (Oct. 3 2014 19:42:46)

I'm with it, give a simple cante track. Map out the chord changes for the beginners and see who does the most tasteful accompaniment?



guitarbuddha -> RE: SOLEA ACCOMPANIMENT CHALLENGE!!!!!! (Oct. 3 2014 20:03:22)

This sounds great but one little point. Often there are options sometimes as simple as choosing C or Am and sometimes a little more sophisticated ie E7b9 versus CMaj7.

Taste cannot be prescribed.

D.



tele -> RE: SOLEA ACCOMPANIMENT CHALLENGE!!!!!! (Oct. 3 2014 20:05:24)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leñador

I'm with it, give a simple cante track. Map out the chord changes for the beginners and see who does the most tasteful accompaniment?


That would be nice and basic, also maybe a choice from two or several soleas, for example one in por medio and one in por arriba. You can then even maybe post a sample video to show an example to those unfamiliar with accompanying[:)] I think there are too few lessons on accompanying for beginners online[;)]



Leñador -> RE: SOLEA ACCOMPANIMENT CHALLENGE!!!!!! (Oct. 3 2014 20:06:12)

Extra points if you can incorporate substitution chords that work. They "road map" we'd supply would just be the most basic way possible to accompany the singing. Passing chords and substitutions are all cherrys on top if you can pull it off.



Leñador -> RE: SOLEA ACCOMPANIMENT CHALLENGE!!!!!! (Oct. 3 2014 20:26:57)

quote:

That would be nice and basic, also maybe a choice from two or several soleas, for example one in por medio and one in por arriba. You can then even maybe post a sample video to show an example to those unfamiliar with accompanying I think there are too few lessons on accompanying for beginners online


The tough part of this is finding nice acapella cante tracks with palmas......
I'm happy to post a "road map" video for this challenge but my cante accompaniment skills are pretty sh&t so I don't think I have any business posting "how to" cante accompany videos to the world. lol [:D]
If someone doesn't directly teach me how to play for a letra it take me a while to figure out...........



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