Toros y flamenco (Full Version)

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Morante -> Toros y flamenco (Aug. 12 2014 15:34:07)

http://www.red2000.com/spain/toros/1history.html

Do not read if you are anti.



Thomas -> RE: Toros y flamenco (Aug. 12 2014 16:52:44)

http://www.antitauromaquia.es
http://www.ecologistasenaccion.org/article1389.html

do read if you are pro.



BarkellWH -> RE: Toros y flamenco (Aug. 12 2014 19:14:25)

quote:

Do not read if you are anti.


It is nonsense to suggest one should only read articles in support of one's position, regarding the corrida or any other topic. There is enough ignorance in the world without contributing to it by posting an article and then advising members, "Do not read if you are anti."

The corrida and most other topics have their defenders and detractors. But it is good to hear all sides of an issue, even if one disagrees with one side or the other, if nothing else in order to know what drives the other side's position. Moreover, the history of the corrida is interesting, even if one thinks that society has evolved to a point where it is now considered cruel and inhumane by many. As an example, at one time I enjoyed the corrida. I no longer do because I find it cruel and inhumane.

To post the link to an article, and then to admonish members, "Do not read if you are anti.," is childish and demonstrates a lack of regard for your readers' maturity and intellectual level.

Bill



athrane77 -> RE: Toros y flamenco (Aug. 12 2014 19:37:41)

well said bill.



Leñador -> RE: Toros y flamenco (Aug. 12 2014 19:48:33)

I think you guys are forgetting that if you don't like Torrero you don't like flamenco. [:D]
I guess that makes me indifferent to flamenco..........Man I waste a lot of time with indifference. lolol



aeolus -> RE: Toros y flamenco (Aug. 12 2014 20:05:07)

Is there any connection between bull fighting and flamenco?
I wasn't aware that there was other than they are both quintessentially Spanish. The trumpet is the instrument of the correda as it is used to mark the various "acts" in the drama if memory serves me. One might draw a parallel between the sacrifice of the bull and the Catholic sacrifice of the Mass with the various acts in that drama announced by ringing a small bell.



Leñador -> RE: Toros y flamenco (Aug. 12 2014 20:53:26)

quote:

Is there any connection between bull fighting and flamenco?

Don't get him started aeolus!



athrane77 -> [Deleted] (Aug. 12 2014 21:10:39)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Aug. 26 2015 10:55:25



BarkellWH -> RE: Toros y flamenco (Aug. 12 2014 21:37:21)

quote:

Is there any connection between bull fighting and flamenco?


I think the connection that is associated with the corrida and flamenco is one of "correlation," not "causation," i.e., both the corrida and flamenco were developed in the region, but neither is dependent on the other, and each could exist without the other. They simply are the two most prominent cultural elements one associates with Spain. The mistake some make is in thinking that the association of flamenco with the corrida that is expressed by some flamencos and toreros represents ground truth, when it is, in fact, opinion.

In fact, many Spaniards who attend the corrida don't hold a particular love of flamenco. I would wager you will find a majority of Spaniards favor pop and "world music" over flamenco, while still occasionally attending a corrida. Likewise, the corrida has flourished in Mexico, Colombia, Ecuador, and other countries with no history of flamenco. If the corrida disappeared tomorrow, flamenco would continue to flourish at its present level with no loss of imagination and beauty.

Bill



gj Michelob -> RE: Toros y flamenco (Aug. 12 2014 22:16:35)

Replying in general:

Most popular and recurrent trending threads:
Conde Hermanos,
Strings,
Nails,
Women & Flamenco,
Toros y Flamenco,
Beginner's guitar
Diaz & his traveling act, the Andalusian Guitar...

.... Vicente Amigo's latest!

And we all are a bit guilty of beating those dead horses.



aeolus -> RE: Toros y flamenco (Aug. 12 2014 22:45:12)

quote:

And we all are a bit guilty of beating those dead horses.


You are sounding like Ricardo who dumps on many threads saying yes we discussed this 10 years ago. Not all of us follow every post with rapt attention. This is the first time I have seen the correda/flamenco connection aired. One might view the correda in light of Spanish history as at one point the crown jewel of Catholicism and that religion as its basis in the centrality of suffering and death. I well remember in second grade the nun informing the class to pray for a happy death the gold standard being Joseph who supposedly died in the presence of Jesus and Mary. At age 7 death is not on ones radar screen. But before Vatican II Catholicism was at flood tide I can tell you. Well as I am not a anthropologist I am not qualified to draw conclusions but I have a hunch that the drama of the bullfight and the drama of the passion of Christ are inter-related. But I see flamenco as life affirming and a gypsy
thorn in the sanctimonious preaching of the clergy.



BarkellWH -> RE: Toros y flamenco (Aug. 12 2014 23:18:19)

quote:

And we all are a bit guilty of beating those dead horses.


I cannot think of many flamenco topics, whether lutherie, palos, compas, and others in addition to the ones you listed, that have not been discussed several times over the years. If we use that as a standard to define "beating dead horses" we might as well fold up our tent and call it a day. Actually, that is the value of having an "Off Topic" section, where we can introduce and discuss topics completely unrelated to flamenco and relieve the tedium of going over much-ploughed ground.

Bill



gj Michelob -> RE: Toros y flamenco (Aug. 12 2014 23:46:10)

quote:

If we use that as a standard to define "beating dead horses" we might as well fold up our tent and call it a day.


Barkell: I don't disagree; in fact, I even enjoy it.
Aeolus: Yes, indeed, I was purposefully evoking Ricardo's recent (and steady) protest regarding recycled trends.



gerundino63 -> RE: Toros y flamenco (Aug. 13 2014 8:06:15)

@G.J.,

I think you forgot something about picado there..[:D]



BarkellWH -> RE: Toros y flamenco (Aug. 13 2014 13:05:48)

quote:

I think you forgot something about picado there..


Not to mention "traditional" vs. "neuvo," vs. "fusion."

Bill



Ruphus -> RE: Toros y flamenco (Aug. 13 2014 13:24:48)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

... I have a hunch that the drama of the bullfight and the drama of the passion of Christ are inter-related.


Quite possibly.
Certainly regarding a voyeurism that will occure when someone´s agony can be consumed.

And it will in the same time indicate a cultural level.
The lower the more ( open or hidden ) gloating over pain there will be.

And when culture is highly developed like once with ancient Greeks people may detest the lowliness behind such events.

Ruphus



aeolus -> RE: Toros y flamenco (Aug. 13 2014 14:07:44)

"Bullfighting," Lorca once explained to a friend, "is the liturgy of the bulls: an authentic religious drama in which, just as in the Mass, there is adoration and sacrifice of a god."

The fierceness and power of a Mirura seen as godlike against the slender man that faces it without fear. Of course the actions of the arrows and the spear are utilized to reduce the immense strength of the bull and make it more amenable to the spectacle of the muleta.



Ruphus -> RE: Toros y flamenco (Aug. 13 2014 14:42:10)

I think bulls are followers of Hinduism or possibly of Mongolian shamanism / assumptions like above to classically contain blind conjecture.

Ruphus



Morante -> RE: Toros y flamenco (Aug. 13 2014 15:08:14)

http://verano.laverdad.es/festivales/el-cante-de-las-minas-de-la-union/3761-flamenco-y-toros-van-de-la-mano



aeolus -> RE: Toros y flamenco (Aug. 13 2014 15:10:28)

quote:

assumptions like above to classically contain blind conjecture.


Lorca speaks from a deep understanding of the culture. I suspect there is a correlation between the secularization of Europe and the decline in interest in the corrida.



aeolus -> [Deleted] (Aug. 13 2014 15:13:14)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Aug. 13 2014 15:13:29



Morante -> RE: Toros y flamenco (Aug. 13 2014 15:23:42)

Sabido es que el arte flamenco y el arte de Cuchares están más que hermanados en muchos aspectos. Términos similares se emplean para describir ambas manifestaciones y, a lo largo de la historia, han sido muchos los artistas flamencos que han pisado albero, baste como ejemplo más significativo el de Enrique el Mellizo, insigne creador gaditano y miembro de la cuadrilla del torero Hermosilla o el deseo de algunos cantaores de ser toreros como el mismo Camarón de la Isla. En el terreno del baile ha sido aún mayor la interrelación porque algunas poses requieren actitudes taurinas. Últimamente ha salido al mercado un disco titulado "Toreros con Duende" donde se rinde un homenaje al mundo del toro por artistas del peso de Paco de Lucía o Manolo Sanlúcar, quien creara esa joya llamada "Tauromagia".



Ruphus -> RE: Toros y flamenco (Aug. 13 2014 16:47:32)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

I suspect there is a correlation between the secularization of Europe and the decline in interest in the corrida.


Yep. The path from subjectivity towards objectivity. Only what a drag that it not just is taking ages to develop, but even steps backwards whenever superstition is having phases of revival.

Meanwhile into 3rd millenia and all the illiteracy / adapt-view-spontaneously-to-demand / un-reflection of the Middel Age is still flickering around. [X(] ( I want a vomit icon)

Ruphus



orsonw -> RE: Toros y flamenco (Aug. 13 2014 17:43:20)

Charo Manzano with Manolo Sanlucar.

"Quien canta en la arena, contra un toro, una muleta que al alma, busca el silencio, como una pena, como una oración”




Ricardo -> RE: Toros y flamenco (Aug. 13 2014 17:59:22)

quote:

You are sounding like Ricardo who dumps on many threads saying yes we discussed this 10 years ago.


Only when I see the same exact opinions from the SAME people all over again. ANd again. ANd again. Contrary to this, I have no problem addressing new comers with same old questions. (see recent picado topic).

And back on topic, I have no problem with pointing out that Manolo Sanlucar's "Tauromagia" addresses the connection between corrida and flamenco directly and remains one of the greatest works in the genre of flamenco guitar.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tauromagia

I took time to grab this quote from an old british flamenco magazine, "Flamenco International" march of 2000.

Interviewer: "I have heard you had some problems with one of your concerts, with Tauromagia in fact."

MANOLO: "Yes. I was in New York. I was to perform tauromagia but when I arrived at the theatre I found a crowd with placards protesting about bullfighting in Spain. The hall was completely sold out so I decided before I ever played a note, to put my guitar on the chair and explain to the audience that in Spain we were trying to defend ourselves from the culture that others wanted to impose on us from outside. I received a large ovation and continued to give one of my best performances."



Ruphus -> RE: Toros y flamenco (Aug. 13 2014 19:11:26)

He has not the brains required to understand that for the agony of a tortured being self-brewn terms like "outside" or "inside culture" are entirely irrelevant, while profan pain fully stays what it is.

No one can presume on the pain of others. And advocats of ignorance against third´s agony must let themselves be treated correspondingly before being even just remotely close to legitimate estimation of the matter.

It is so easy to spread one´s dumbness and skip deconstructivist concerns. Billions do so daily.
-

Hey Manolo,

Your pain will not hurt me at all. Which again must entitle me to ignore it.
So let me drive some nails into your knees just to see how it could effect rhythmic guitar playing.
I am a curious chap and hedonist, ya know. ;O/

Ruphus



BarkellWH -> RE: Toros y flamenco (Aug. 13 2014 19:36:31)

quote:

MANOLO: "Yes. I was in New York. I was to perform tauromagia but when I arrived at the theatre I found a crowd with placards protesting about bullfighting in Spain. The hall was completely sold out so I decided before I ever played a note, to put my guitar on the chair and explain to the audience that in Spain we were trying to defend ourselves from the culture that others wanted to impose on us from outside


I respect Manolo's opinion, and although at one time I found the corrida interesting and exciting to watch, for a long time now I have considered it cruel and inhumane. Nevertheless, I would never presume to tell Spaniards they should ban the corrida. Although I do not like it, if they wish to keep it that is their business, not mine or anyone else's.

What I take issue with is the presumption that there is a causal (organic, if you will) connection between flamenco and the corrida. That they both represent the two most recognizable cultural features of Spain does not represent a causal (organic) connection. I'm sure that there are instances where one has influenced the other (far more the corrida influencing specific--not general--flamenco pieces, rather than the reverse), but flamenco would have developed with or without the corrida. In my opinion inspiration for flamenco in general does not depend on the corrida, Tauromagia notwithstanding.

Bill



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Toros y flamenco (Aug. 13 2014 23:37:38)

"I decided before I ever played a note, to put my guitar on the chair and explain to the audience that in Spain we were trying to defend ourselves from the culture that others wanted to impose on us from outside. I received a large ovation and continued to give one of my best performances."

He doesn't realize most of his audience didn't speak Spanish and probably thought he was saying "Are you ready for the Gypsy Fiesta!?"

A friend of mine said that the guitar and bullfighting were "cruel arts". I think he meant, partly, that you could easily be injured doing either.



Ricardo -> RE: Toros y flamenco (Aug. 14 2014 4:29:34)

quote:

A friend of mine said that the guitar and bullfighting were "cruel arts". I think he meant, partly, that you could easily be injured doing either.


K maricon.

really man, manolo explain himself to PETA and it's just ... "ready for gypsy fiesta?" [:D][:D]



Ruphus -> RE: Toros y flamenco (Aug. 14 2014 8:58:43)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

... if they wish to keep it that is their business, not mine or anyone else's.


Regarding matters concerning themselves, but not thirds.
Animals are not at all inherently guilty of anything that would make them fair game, nor are they legitimate object to any cultures opine and fancy. They have their own right of being either left alone in natural habitat or treated decently with empathy.

In many cultures it is considered "cool being" to be unfeeling, and as a resulting cruelty is effecting innocents, it is the duty of anyone civilized enough to advocat the exposed and victim.

Animal torturing is no Spain´s business. It concerns animals.

Ruphus



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