Fake Paco De Lucia Models!! (Full Version)

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flamencoguru -> Fake Paco De Lucia Models!! (Dec. 15 2005 1:42:53)

Hey guys,

I was on the PDL forum and Juan Estrada (Paco's manager) found out that Manuel Rodriguez guitars, in Madrid, is making a guitar and calling it the "Paco de Lucia model". Juan said that this has nothing to do with Paco and his company, De Lucia Gestion. Be careful not to buy these frauds!!

Here is the message Juan wrote over at the PDL Forum with some links to these "fake" PDL models. It's in Spanish. I'm not in the mood to translate :-( It says more or less what I have just explained.

Estimados Sres. queremos hacer publico , que hemos detectado en muchos links y web de venta de guitarras, de toda Europa y Asia, unos cátalogos en los cuales se ofrecen unos módelos de guitarras, construidas por Manuel Rodriguez, modelos Paco de Lucia, por lo cual para que nadie se lleve a engaño queremos desde aquí dejar claro que PACO DE LUCIA Y SU EMPRESA DE LUCIA GESTION SL no tienen nada que ver con dichas guitarras, asi mismo incluimos dichos links para que ustedes mismos comprueben lo anteriormente reseñado, no es una broma es muy serio el tema, por lo tanto y para que nadie se lleve a engaño ni sea engañado queremos hacer publico el caso.
Sin mas un saludo cordial


RAMON DE ALGECIRAS & JUAN ESTRADA
DE LUCIA GESTION SL

links

http://www.proguitar.ro/index.php?page=sub_rodriguez&selected_category=Chitare%20clasice

http://www.musictrades.co.jp/instrument/category/guitar/

http://www.musik-produktiv.at/shop2/shop03.asp/sid/!18121995/ob_id/533/seite/6/nur_lieferbare/nein

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7363051585&category=621

y muchos mas que no hemos puesto para no cansaros



nickeyg -> RE: Fake Paco De Lucia Models!! (Dec. 15 2005 2:09:23)

There is so much smoke and mirrors when it comes to guitars these days. Just look at the Condes as a prime example. I almost bought a guitar by a reputible dealer that claimed it was selling Brazilian Rosewood and really it was Caviuna, but they wanted BR prices. You really have to fly to Spain with an expert to get a good Conde. Thanks for the post!



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Fake Paco De Lucia Models!! (Dec. 15 2005 3:24:09)

not just "these days." What was with the "Segovia Model" Ramirez I believe, back in the 70's or something?



sorin popovici -> RE: Fake Paco De Lucia Models!! (Dec. 15 2005 3:29:11)

cool www.proguitar.ro

Romanian site ,he he he :D

Damn that fake PDL guitar is 1600 ron....that's a lot for me.
Oh ,wait in $ is about 500 US dollars...cheap,cheap..I still want a Conde.
Damn romanian dealers they will sell you everything and tell u it's genuine.

I have a story...I went to a shop here and played the top model.
It was an Alvaro or smth at about 400 Euros (aprox 500 $ I guess)
....I was there just to play on the most expensive ones for free :D.
Now ...imagine this , I asked for a Yamaha Cg171SF the flamenco model
...this is just insane.They didnt have it ...but said that they will sell it
to me if I ever got the money at 450 Euros.On the net this guitar
is 350 $(so probably 300 euros) ,so here not only do I pay more for a good guitar ...but
i'm not even allowed to sound it cause they wont bring it here
cause they have no real market.Sure they say ....the money
back guarantee if you dont like it ....They tried to sell me
the alvaro ,they said smth like : "man , this is the true thing
,that's a true concert guitar made in Spain".I asked just
for fun if it's handmade....he didnt understand even the
question,I said to look it up on www.guitarsalon.com.
Btw ...they also let u pay in small sums every month but
u got to go to a bank ask for a loan etc.Anyway,i'm
a regular customer there...i just wished that they will
change the strings once in a while,they have rusty
high action on the alvaro.I'm thinking to apply there,
maybe i'll become the salesman...cool job,play guitars all day.
They should hire me ...I know more than that guy who's trying
to sell me his "concert guitars".Another joke : asked for
a capo, they have a weird one at 7 Euros...I asked for
a Dunlop I had to get them to the computer in the back to google
on Dunlop capos.I guess they dont know too much,cause
the store is owned by a french and the personal know
more french than english,and there is less info in french on the net
compared to the sites on guitars that are in English.



Btw , on the romanian site it says guitar C3 Paco Da Lucia.
Not de Lucia...cool, a Paco Da Lucia will look cool with my Abidas snickers.[:@]
Well ...this is impressing, they cant even spell it !



Patrick -> RE: Fake Paco De Lucia Models!! (Dec. 15 2005 17:15:51)

quote:

What was with the "Segovia Model" Ramirez I believe, back in the 70's or something?


That was a little game that was played by James Sherry, the US Ramirez distributor at the time. He would put a sticker on the label that said "Segovia Model", which of course no such thing existed. He lost his distributorship due to it..



jshelton5040 -> RE: Fake Paco De Lucia Models!! (Dec. 15 2005 18:46:33)

The "Segovia Model" label was put there by the Ramirez shop, the top flamenco guitar was called the "Sabicas Model". I suspect these were authentic endorsements as at that time both Segovia and Sabicas used Ramirez guitars in concert. No different from the Paco de Lucia model from the Carrillo shop. Sherry-Brener practiced some very questionable business practices like covering the class of the guitar (1A, 2A, etc.) with their little Sherry-Brener tag and sticking "Made in Spain" labels on what were obviously Japanese factory made guitars (i.e. Hernandis..note the spelling) not to mention the Marcellino Barbero guitars with Ramirez head stock that came in cartons clearly marked Made in Japan. I don't know why Ramirez backed out of the exclusive franchise with Sherry Brener but it was probably just a money issue.

John Shelton



Patrick -> RE: Fake Paco De Lucia Models!! (Dec. 15 2005 19:40:09)

quote:

The "Segovia Model" label was put there by the Ramirez shop


John,

Good to hear from you. Hope the move went well and you and Susan have settled in.

I find this interesting, as builders Richard Brune' and Charles Vega have stated many times that the Segovia label was applied by Sherry after the guitars arrived in the US and no endorsements were given. It has been stated this was a major reason the line was lost. Volumes have been written on this subject on the Acoustic Guitar forum.

This is a small sample of what Mr. Vega had to say.

http://www.acousticguitar.com/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=005058#000003

Perhaps we can request Mr.’s Vega and Brune’ to respond to this subject. I seriously doubt we will know the full story.



jshelton5040 -> RE: Fake Paco De Lucia Models!! (Dec. 16 2005 0:09:02)

You know Pat I think you're right. I've thought about it and I've never seen a label in a Ramirez that said either "Segovia Model" or "Sabicas Model". I even owned a couple of Ramirez flamencos in the 60's and there was no mention of Sabicas on the label. I also don't think I've seen a Sherry-Brener label that said the above. The only Sherry-Brener labels I recall said something like "Casa Sherry-Brener Madrid".

I do remember seeing the "Segovia model" and "Sabicas model" in a lot of advertising back then, maybe that's the cause of my memory failure. Think about it though, have you ever seen a picture of Sabicas from the late 50's on holding anything but a Ramirez? Yet we know he recorded using Barbero, Reyes, Rico, etc. I still suspect that Ramirez was well aware of the use of these two giants' names in association with their guitars, if not complicit in it. Segovia obviously had a long relationship with Ramirez and favored their guitars. The last time I saw him he was playing one of those Centennial models with the ugly ivory inlay in the head stock. That was on his 90th birthday.

The move is still in progress. We have a lovely new 1300 sq ft shop and hope to be back to work on guitars by next summer. It's a real delight to look out the living room window and watch a Bald Eagle fly by, not to mention the crystaline air, river and silence.

John Shelton



sorin popovici -> RE: Fake Paco De Lucia Models!! (Dec. 16 2005 0:27:50)

quote:


Perhaps we can request Mr.’s Vega and Brune’ to respond to this subject. I seriously doubt we will know the full story.

hmm , well ....this could be very interesting and good for this foro.



Ricardo -> RE: Fake Paco De Lucia Models!! (Dec. 16 2005 6:30:52)

People interested in the Ramirez phony label subject should read the book "Things about the guitar" by J. Ramirez III. He talks about that story and other frustrations with building the ideal "Segovia" guitar. Lots of great photos in the book too.



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