Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- WOW!!! (Full Version)

Foro Flamenco: http://www.foroflamenco.com/
- Discussions: http://www.foroflamenco.com/default.asp?catApp=0
- - Lutherie: http://www.foroflamenco.com/in_forum.asp?forumid=22
- - - Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- WOW!!!: http://www.foroflamenco.com/fb.asp?m=261227



Message

wiking -> Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- WOW!!! (Jun. 9 2014 15:07:54)

So I posted earlier today about downstroke golpes and was wondering why it was killing my finger so much. I did some researching and found that while my 12th fret action as pretty standard at 3mm on the nose, the height of the strings was a little tall at the bridge. Since I am reasonably handy (engineering student!) I took out the saddle, marked it to reduce 12th fret action to 2.5mm and started filing, gripping it in a vice.

As I got closer and closer to my pencil mark, I tested it out a couple times, taking it slow. I'd tune up, play a little, then go back to filing, noting a steady improvement in ease of fingering, but no real change in overall "tone". This slow and steady method took a couple hours but it paid off big:

For some reason, after I got it to 2.6mm, just a hair above my mark, something magical happened. The guitar became raspier, louder, brighter. The buzzing became more subtle, tighter. It's overall volume and tonality became more... flamenco? I can't really explain it. It now sounds like the most classic of classic blancas I've ever heard (this is a Navarro Student blanca with pegs) and I'm absolutely AMAZED. And to top it all off, my goal of bringing the action at the bridge down to facilitate a better downstroke golpe above the strings worked a charm- I can do it all day now. Needless to say, I stopped filing right there and called it a day.

So, I think I managed to give an already great guitar just the tiniest little nudge it needed to move into FANTASTIC guitar territory. This setup is exactly where this guitar wants to be... I'm just too thrilled that I managed to do it myself, as a total amateur.

Had to share my joy. I'll try and put up some quality recordings soon.

Olé!



tele -> RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- WOW!!! (Jun. 9 2014 15:16:01)

Commonly higher action would mean louder... I have settled at around 2.8mm for the bass E. I've experimented quite a bit with action height, 2.6mm is on the low side a bit but if you don't play loud and don't use much cejilla on the higher frets you'll be fine. I've heard manolo sanlucar used very low action but you can hear lots of buzzing in his playing



wiking -> RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- WOW!!! (Jun. 9 2014 15:33:51)

I guess each guitar is an individual and mine just like this a bit more. At around 2.8, where I first tested, it wasn't very much different tonally or in feel. Glad I kept going. Bone nuts are cheap so whatever, haha. The added perceived volume may just be the improved tones from the trebles and more sparkly basses coming through more since the strings are closer to the body.



Sr. Martins -> RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- WOW!!! (Jun. 9 2014 18:03:49)

My action is around 1.9 - 2.3 depending on the humidity.

I find there's a threshold where the volume drops and the mids get more in your face. That's where I like it, less volume is also a plus for me.



jshelton5040 -> RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- WOW!!! (Jun. 9 2014 23:02:58)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins
less volume is also a plus for me.

What!? Guitars are already so quiet that the loudest ones can't compete with any symphonic instrument. Are you living in a thin walled apartment?



Sr. Martins -> RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- WOW!!! (Jun. 9 2014 23:35:21)

quote:

What!? Guitars are already so quiet that the loudest ones can't compete with any symphonic instrument. Are you living in a thin walled apartment?


Volume is a relative thing and I usually don't play soft. Not deaf either.


Good thing is that we have mics and P.A.'s to use so I don't really see the need to make every instrument as loud as possible. Tone is what matters to me and I prefer to extract dirtier sounds from the guitar by playing it harder than getting pretty much the same sound and a lot more volume. That's annoying, especially to my right ear.



jshelton5040 -> RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- WOW!!! (Jun. 10 2014 2:17:59)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

Good thing is that we have mics and P.A.'s to use so I don't really see the need to make every instrument as loud as possible.


I don't consider mikes and P.A.'s to have anything to do with musical instruments. I suppose I'm a little old fashioned but before the onset of arthritis I was considered a very loud powerful player by most people and I always hated the idea of needing an amplifier. Sadly the guitar is at best a parlor instrument best suited to intimate settings so any extra volume is a plus in my opinion; but whatever turns your crank
[:)].



constructordeguitarras -> RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- WOW!!! (Jun. 10 2014 5:16:05)

I appreciate your post and the other replies because as a guitar maker it is good--necessary--to know the setups people like. So thanks for posting.



SephardRick -> RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- WOW!!! (Jun. 10 2014 15:47:10)

quote:

other replies because as a guitar maker it is good--necessary--to know the setups people like.


If you are asking for my two cents: Between 3.0mm to 2.8mm on mine. I find anything lower, makes the G string slide latterly on the saddle (not staying in place) - making it sound not as musical to my ear in regard to a lower saddle. This is the case on any nylon guitar that I have own being flamenco or classical.
Even the smaller diameter string doesn't help. Once the g string starts sliding on the saddle as you play, it loses a musical value in my opinion. It my be easier to play lower, but I want to a note close to the B string in sound quality.

So, I don't go any lower than 2.8 for the G string for that reason. Hope that makes sense to you, Mr. Deutsch.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- WOW!!! (Jun. 10 2014 16:13:48)

quote:

If you are asking for my two cents: Between 3.0mm to 2.8mm on mine. I find anything lower, makes the G string slide latterly on the saddle (not staying in place) - making it sound not as musical to my ear in regard to a lower saddle. This is the case on any nylon guitar that I have own being flamenco or classical.
Even the smaller diameter string doesn't help. Once the g string starts sliding on the saddle as you play, it loses a musical value in my opinion. It my be easier to play lower, but I want to a note close to the B string in sound quality.

So, I don't go any lower than 2.8 for the G string for that reason. Hope that makes sense to you, Mr. Deutsch.


This doesnt make sense... The height of the string over the 12th fret has nothing to do with how the string sits on the saddle and how much it will slide or not. What matters there is the string height at the bridge and the breakangle. You can have all kinds of stringheights at the bridge and saddle depending on your neckangle.

Another thing is that I agree that going lower than 2,8mm is IMHO going to low. You gain very little if anything in playability and loose a lot of projection and and volume.



SephardRick -> RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- WOW!!! (Jun. 10 2014 16:26:59)

quote:

This doesnt make sense... The height of the string over the 12th fret has nothing to do with how the string sits on the saddle and how much it will slide or not. What matters there is the string height at the bridge and the breakangle. You can have all kinds of stringheights at the bridge and saddle depending on your neckangle


You got the point - The break angle. It is not strong enough on my the guitars I own to hold the G string in place. I've been playing for forty-eight years. When I hit the strings, I hit them hard. So, they might be more prone to movement than others.
I'll give you an example. Sunday night I jamming with a friend. I using an electric guitar. I broke three light gauge picks.

I prefer 2.8mm to 3.0mm and that an explaination why I prefer it.



tele -> RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- WOW!!! (Jun. 10 2014 17:06:23)

I went from around 3.2mm to 2.8mm and it did lessen a bit the volume of the guitar, or maybe it was a placebo[:)]

I have noticed that some guitars react better to low setup such as 2.5mm, I mean buzz less, must be in the pulsation of the top and the neck angle and possible curvature. some luthiers create slight curve(0.1-0.2mm) to the neck at 2-5th fret as that's the worst buzzing zone.

with very low setup I've noticed the buzzing is worst at 7th fret and up



krichards -> RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- WOW!!! (Jun. 11 2014 7:18:52)

quote:

You got the point - The break angle. It is not strong enough on my the guitars I own to hold the G string in place.


You'll get a bigger break angle if you have your bridge converted to 12 holes.
Its a straightforward job for a luthier.



SephardRick -> RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- WOW!!! (Jun. 11 2014 15:01:18)

quote:

You'll get a bigger break angle if you have your bridge converted to 12 holes


I've been toying with that idea over a year. The only thing stopping me is altering the historic value of the instruments. Original nuts, saddles, and tuning keys can be set aside and experimented with replacements. But drilling holes in the bridge is a permanent modification.



Blondie#2 -> RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- WOW!!! (Jun. 11 2014 15:07:45)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SephardRick

quote:

You'll get a bigger break angle if you have your bridge converted to 12 holes


I've been toying with that idea over a year. The only thing stopping me is altering the historic value of the instruments. Original nuts, saddles, and tuning keys can be set aside and experimented with replacements. But drilling holes in the bridge is a permanent modification.


So get some string ties:
http://www.string-tie.com/

No modification, cheap to try.



SephardRick -> RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- WOW!!! (Jun. 11 2014 15:16:36)

quote:

So get some string ties


Interesting...Have you tried them? If so, did they increase string tension on top of the saddle?



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- WOW!!! (Jun. 11 2014 15:23:15)

These string ties will work as 12 hole bridge and give a lot more breakangle over the saddle compared to using a 6 hole tieblock and tying the trad. way.
My personal opinion about breakangle is that more breakangle doesnt have to be better. Enough is enough and on some guitars it can be very little.



etta -> RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- WOW!!! (Jun. 11 2014 15:24:53)

And what about string tension? I generally use "high tension" strings and therefore can set the action very low, 2.5 bass, some less on treble. The guitar is very playable with no real loss in volume/projection.



SephardRick -> RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- WOW!!! (Jun. 11 2014 15:26:52)

quote:

These string ties will work as 12 hole bridge and give a lot more breakangle over the saddle compared to using a 6 hole tieblock and tying the trad. way.
My personal opinion about breakangle is that more breakangle doesnt have to be better. Enough is enough and on some guitars it can be very little.


Thanks for the advice.

The string holes are very worn weakening the break angle too. Think I'll bit the bullet and fill in the string holes with rosewood dowels and redrill.



Bliblablub -> RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- WOW!!! (Jun. 11 2014 17:11:36)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins
Volume is a relative thing


I think it is safe to say that volume is not a relative thing.



Sr. Martins -> RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- WOW!!! (Jun. 11 2014 17:47:29)

quote:

I think it is safe to say that volume is not a relative thing.


That's fine by me but you are wrong.

What I consider to be "low volume" might be someone else's "huge volume". Got it?



Escribano -> RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- WOW!!! (Jun. 11 2014 18:14:14)

I think the point here is that volume can be perceived to be greater than before, when you have made a change. That is relative and may be subjective. Without stringent lab tests it may be impossible to tell, but if it were my guitar and I was happy, then I would be, well... happy. Fiddling with guitars is fun.

When I bought a cheap Bernal, a tuner broke so I installed black Schaller Hausers. Stephen Hill put in a bone nut and saddle and it made a big difference to me.



Bliblablub -> RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- WOW!!! (Jun. 11 2014 19:53:45)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

quote:

I think it is safe to say that volume is not a relative thing.


That's fine by me but you are wrong.

What I consider to be "low volume" might be someone else's "huge volume". Got it?


Fine by you but wrong? what?
Perception of volume, not volume, is what you're talking about. Yes that is relative, not the volume itself though.



Escribano -> RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- WOW!!! (Jun. 11 2014 19:57:36)

Leave it, please. This is not physics discussion of absolutes.



guitarbuddha -> RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- WOW!!! (Jun. 11 2014 20:02:45)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Escribano

Leave it, please. This is not physics discussion of absolutes.


Even taken all together we wouldn't be as smart as one Planck, never mind two. Not that he believed in absolutes.

D.



Escribano -> RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- WOW!!! (Jun. 11 2014 20:16:12)

Ok, without referring to Wikipedia, I can accept that volume is not an absolute or constant but a relative analogue measurement [8|]



Sr. Martins -> RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- WOW!!! (Jun. 11 2014 20:20:42)

quote:

Perception of volume, not volume, is what you're talking about. Yes that is relative, not the volume itself though.


You came here to talk about stuff out of context. No one mentioned measurements or scales, just "loud" and "less loud" so.. you win.


[sm=Smiley Guitar.gif]



guitarbuddha -> RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- WOW!!! (Jun. 11 2014 20:28:08)

I think Fernando Sor said something like.

'I would like a guitar to louder only so I could diminish it more' (maybe).

And 'A guitarist who is a harmonist, will always have an advantage over one who is not', which is an accurate quote, and very flamenco.

D.



pink -> RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- WOW!!! (Jun. 11 2014 21:35:12)

Nice one wiking ....... congratulations!!



guitarbuddha -> RE: Filed saddle for 2.6mm action-- WOW!!! (Jun. 11 2014 22:02:19)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pink

Nice one wiking ....... congratulations!!


Thanks for the reminder Pink[:)]

Yeah Wiking good for you.

Nothing better to hear than a man happy with his guitar.[:)]

D.



Page: [1] 2    >   >>

Valid CSS!




Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET