Strings closer to the body (Full Version)

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PotOfStew -> Strings closer to the body (May 18 2014 15:14:42)

I have noticed that some flamenco guitars have the strings very close to the body of the guitar. I think this is called low action? I have also seen Joao Gilberto play a guitar like this.

Whatis the pros and cons of this? Too me it seems it will make it easier to do rasquedos and stuff because there will be more space between the fingers and the strings while resting the thumb on the wood above the strings.

However I talked with the luthiere in my town. He is Spanish and builts both classical and flamenco guitars. I asked him about this and he said that he doesn't build his guitars like this and he said it really is not neccesary.

I am going to go to him to get some work done on my guitar. I have some buzzing on some of my strings. I am wondering if I should ask him to get my strings closer to the body. I imagine this will put my guitar at buzzing even more so probably it isn't desirable.

I humbly request your thoughts on the matter.



tri7/5 -> RE: Strings closer to the body (May 18 2014 15:24:58)

Low action is typically referred to the string spacing between the bottom of the string and the fretboard at the 12th fret of the instrument. You'll then hear of measurements i.e. 8mm at the bridge, 10mm at the sound hole etc. This is the clearance of the strings over the body. Lower string clearance typically gives a better ability for a guitarist to hit golpes as they don't have to reach down for lack of a better term with high string clearance.



C. Vega -> RE: Strings closer to the body (May 18 2014 15:40:04)

Just being Spanish does not necessarily make someone a good luthier.



Morante -> RE: Strings closer to the body (May 18 2014 16:02:08)

quote:

I have noticed that some flamenco guitars have the strings very close to the body of the guitar. I think this is called low action?


Low action refers to the distance between the string and the twelfth fret. This is minimally adjustable.

Distance between the strings and the tapa is a consequence of construction and is not adjustable without major work.



PotOfStew -> RE: Strings closer to the body (May 18 2014 16:33:54)

quote:

Just being Spanish does not necessarily make someone a good luthier.


I never said he was good [:D]

He probably is though, I've never tried his guitars and I'm not in a position to judge anyway. I don't know why I mentioned he was spanish, but he is =)

Thank you for the answers! So this is something that is decided when the guitar is built? I will keep that in mind for the day I will invest in a hand made guitar =)

Thank you again everyone!!! =) =)



Ricardo -> RE: Strings closer to the body (May 18 2014 17:33:09)

The neck angle needs to be such that the strings will be low to the soundboard (ideal for right hand) at the bridge but still adjustable for the string height over the fingerboard (called action affecting left hand fretting and string buzz etc). Not too buzzy despite being so low. I find luthiers that act dismissively about bridge height to be sort of rude to us players. It hurts sometimes to have the strings too high for the right hand, and I think, despite what I hear of opinions, that it is a challenge to build and set it up proper vs your average classical guitar (which is played differently anyway).

Ricardo



PotOfStew -> RE: Strings closer to the body (May 18 2014 18:11:09)

Thank you for the insight =)



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Strings closer to the body (May 18 2014 18:14:47)

Back in the old days :-) when I was a kid, I used to like a lower action, as my playing technique was not that strong, so this is what I got used to.

But I've seen and heard a hand full of Spanish guitarists who can play a higher action; including Manolo Baron, and Francisco Espinoza who could play higher actions with ease.

And then there is a modern guitarist from Spain, Jose Luis Rodriguez, now living in Florida, who owns a soft action Ramirez and he sounds fine with it.

So there is no one way to set the action but to try and comply with each player to see what they prefer.

A current guitar that I'm building is not for the faint hearted, as even though its action is low it is a strong instrument that requires a strong hand.



Arash -> RE: Strings closer to the body (May 19 2014 3:35:00)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

Back in the old days :-) when I was a kid, I used to like a lower action, as my playing technique was not that strong, so this is what I got used to.

But I've seen and heard a hand full of Spanish guitarists who can play a higher action; including Manolo Baron, and Francisco Espinoza who could play higher actions with ease.

And then there is a modern guitarist from Spain, Jose Luis Rodriguez, now living in Florida, who owns a soft action Ramirez and he sounds fine with it.

So there is no one way to set the action but to try and comply with each player to see what they prefer.

A current guitar that I'm building is not for the faint hearted, as even though its action is low it is a strong instrument that requires a strong hand.


I've never heard from a serious flamenco player playing gigs, concerts, for dance etc.. who prefers high action.

The question is not if flamenco guitarists can play with higher action or not. Of course they can. But there is a reason why lower action is prefered in flamenco.

To be honest, I'm a bit surprised about this comment of yours.



krichards -> RE: Strings closer to the body (May 19 2014 7:17:58)

quote:

The neck angle needs to be such that the strings will be low to the soundboard (ideal for right hand) at the bridge but still adjustable for the string height over the fingerboard (called action affecting left hand fretting and string buzz etc). Not too buzzy despite being so low. I find luthiers that act dismissively about bridge height to be sort of rude to us players. It hurts sometimes to have the strings too high for the right hand, and I think, despite what I hear of opinions, that it is a challenge to build and set it up proper vs your average classical guitar (which is played differently anyway).


We're aiming for 2.5/3.0mm at the 12th fret and 7/8mm at the saddle. And you're quite right, it is challenging to produce this, while still leaving enough room for adjustments to suit individual players.
But its an essential characteristic of a flamenco guitar these days.

For an artesan luthier its worth spending the time on action and setup because its one area where we definitely have an advantage over the 'factories'. Anything to do with setup is time consuming and labour intensive so often, guitar manufacturers skimp on it to save money.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Strings closer to the body (May 19 2014 7:35:50)

quote:


Back in the old days :-) when I was a kid, I used to like a lower action, as my playing technique was not that strong, so this is what I got used to.

But I've seen and heard a hand full of Spanish guitarists who can play a higher action; including Manolo Baron, and Francisco Espinoza who could play higher actions with ease.

And then there is a modern guitarist from Spain, Jose Luis Rodriguez, now living in Florida, who owns a soft action Ramirez and he sounds fine with it.

So there is no one way to set the action but to try and comply with each player to see what they prefer.

A current guitar that I'm building is not for the faint hearted, as even though its action is low it is a strong instrument that requires a strong hand.


Tom, your post is confusing. You talk about action, where the thread is about stringheight over the soundboard.



Escribano -> RE: Strings closer to the body (May 19 2014 8:57:23)

This is an opportunity to repeat something I was told in Granada by a couple of flamencos.

Generally, the height of the strings above the soundboard at the bridge accommodates a cigarette snugly so that it doesn't fall out. The width across all the strings over the soundhole is about the width of a pack of 20 cigarettes. [8|]

Urban myth or not? Try it and see. [8|]



estebanana -> RE: Strings closer to the body (May 19 2014 9:48:57)

Yeah I've heard the cigarette under the strings at the saddle as a Gitano system of measurement. I believe it makes the strings 7.5mm to 8mm off the tapa depending your brand and whther you smoke rubios or the dark tobacco Ducados. I witnessed a conversation about this one night at a bar counter. [:D][:D]

There was another one that had to do with two coins under the 12th fret as the 3mm 12th fret clearance. Shimming he nut with one or two layers of cigarette box cardboard is a measurement too.

I would not call this folklore, I would call it barlore.



Morante -> RE: Strings closer to the body (May 19 2014 9:57:14)

I was in the Peña de la Perla one night carrying a guitar which had a classical setup. El Niño Jero passed by and demanded to see it. He pushed his hand between tapa and strings, said "no sirve pa´na´" and walked off[:)]



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Strings closer to the body (May 19 2014 10:24:18)

Trends do change and what I gave was my experience seeing other guitarists and their string height preferences.

I think the higher string heights were possibly to strengthen the guitar's projection on stage but some of it was too high for my technique.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Strings closer to the body (May 19 2014 10:30:41)

Tom, I´m not sure that I follow you. Are you talking about stringheight over the soundboard or over the frets?
I have met good flamencos who prefered 3+mm setup over the 12th fret, but I have never met anyone who PREFERED strings high over the soundboard. Some could live with it, but noone prefered it. 90% says just like in Morantes post, that the guitar is worthless.... (never mind the sound, the pulsation, the voice, the color, the name on the label, the headstock. You name it)



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Strings closer to the body (May 19 2014 10:58:36)

Fransisco Espinoza played a concert at SMU in Dallas Texas many years ago when I was a young player. The string height of the Conde guitar he was playing was 4 mm at the 12th fret, as I can remember, and higher than normal at the bridge.

This was his personal guitar but he had another guitar that he showed for sale that was lower in its action. But both guitars were too hard for my technique. And like I said, the higher action could have been for projection value as he didn't have electronic amplification for the concert.

On the other hand, Carlos Montoya's Barbero action was as low as it could go and then tuned down a semi-tone or so to make it easier for his playing.



estebanana -> RE: Strings closer to the body (May 19 2014 13:38:10)

Yeah I have to agree with Nino Jero if the strings are a cigarette and a half high off the tapa no dice. A fat pinky is worth two Ducados.



gj Michelob -> RE: Strings closer to the body (May 19 2014 15:51:05)

quote:

Generally, the height of the strings above the soundboard at the bridge accommodates a cigarette snugly so that it doesn't fall out.


'love it. Cigarettes were ubiquitous in the spare personal effects of a Flamenco (and to some extent, in some cases still are, at least in Spain), and certainly doubled as basic unit of measurement for space and time.

In fact, I often use it as my "sandglass" to measure time, as in a cigarette-long break, or a cigarette-long song, or a cigarette-long wait etc.

I see you too still hold one in your (and rather cool) portrait.

Do you find yourself too using cigarettes to "measure" space and time?

PS.: I know Stephen Faulk doesn't smoke; he practices "safe" flamenco !!



Escribano -> RE: Strings closer to the body (May 19 2014 16:01:55)

Yeah, and I have made a lot of new friends having a smoke outside office buildings [:D] The gitano measuring device is generally a Marlboro Red.



gj Michelob -> RE: Strings closer to the body (May 19 2014 17:18:31)

quote:

have made a lot of new friends having a smoke outside office buildings


It is called 'solidarity' ... of the outcast and unprivileged.

I agree, Marlboro Red, standard size, hard pack, is indeed the 'golden standard'.

Incidentally, I will be in London and Dublin in June [visiting schools for our girls]... hope to have a few smokes and as many pints with you if you'll be around.



Escribano -> RE: Strings closer to the body (May 19 2014 17:21:53)

quote:

Incidentally, I will be in London and Dublin in June [visiting schools for our girls]... hope to have a few smokes and as many pints with you if you'll be around.


Of course! I can make London easily but Dublin is a little further. I'll send you a PM and we can arrange a rendezvous. I am sure there are parts of London you haven't seen yet. [8|]



gj Michelob -> RE: Strings closer to the body (May 19 2014 19:10:15)

quote:

Of course! I can make London easily but Dublin is a little further. I'll send you a PM and we can arrange a rendezvous. I am sure there are parts of London you haven't seen yet.


Oh there are more than a few. It is a first visit for the girls, and i definitely count on you to recommend something a bit more trendy than tea at the Savoy or Port Wine at the Reform Club [:)]

It'll be great to see you in your home turf this time, Simon. I will email you my dates and schedule.

PS.: for a moment, followed by a deep and painful sigh, I thought "perhaps Ron could join us for a beer..."

Cheers,
gj



keith -> RE: Strings closer to the body (May 19 2014 19:34:39)

the general consensus of my google search is marlboro cigarettes are 7.5-7.8mm in diameter. i hope folks are not putting lit cigarettes at the bridge.



gj Michelob -> RE: Strings closer to the body (May 19 2014 20:13:08)

quote:

consensus of my google search is marlboro cigarettes are 7.5-7.8mm in diameter. i hope folks are not putting lit cigarettes at the bridge.


Only for the "Ruben Diaz" guitars... [:D]



estebanana -> RE: Strings closer to the body (May 20 2014 1:09:01)

Us non smoking luthiers use candy cigarettes.

I'm admittedly a vehement anti smoker, but I put up with it in the context of flamenco because you can't really fight it. If the music is going good you can always take a break and go outside for a cigarette length time of non smoky air.



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