Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (Full Version)

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xirdneH_imiJ -> Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (May 14 2014 14:51:16)

Hi friends, I'm seeking advice. Last week I took my guitar to a local luthier who fixed the setup of my guitar. However, it turns out that the current saddle on my guitar is not bone, but plastic. I have 3 options now. My friend Beno is recommending the product "Tusq"; but I also have access to ivory and camel, my father (also a musician) says that ivory will sound good but is a softer bone so it'll wear quickly.

Can you guys share your experiences regarding these?

My guitar has a very dry tone, and I'm looking for something to make it a little bit warmer.

Gracias!



cruzguitars -> RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (May 14 2014 15:07:23)

ivory makes a nice sound



Ruphus -> RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (May 14 2014 17:52:19)

For a warm tone, logically it should be something rather towards the soft side of the material palette.
From there I suppose good old bone to serve you best. ( Bone should be softter than ivory.)

Ruphus



Ricardo -> RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (May 15 2014 3:52:38)

payo bone



estebanana -> RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (May 15 2014 4:03:03)

vaca bone

Get bone, Ivory is fine sonically, but it is politically unfavorable today. The US just two months ago instituted a rather draconian ivory ban policy and you never know how airport security personnel will interpret the policy on the spot.

There will be increasing difficulty with international travel with ivory components on guitars and instruments and I strongly advise against using it for that and other reasons. There will also be the possibility you will have to replace the ivory if you ever want to sell the guitar across a border as all the western countries are stepping up ivory restrictions.



estebanana -> RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (May 15 2014 4:09:06)

quote:

For a warm tone, logically it should be something rather towards the soft side of the material palette.
From there I suppose good old bone to serve you best. ( Bone should be softer than ivory.)


Depending which ivory and which bone the hardness varies. Ivory from different kinds of animals has different density and hardness. It also depends whether is it fossil ivory or new ivory.

Bone is bone, ivory is from hair cells. Weird huh/.



Leñador -> RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (May 15 2014 5:11:31)

I want rhino horn saddle!! So metal! \m/



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (May 15 2014 7:04:25)

I´ve tried Bone, Tusq and bone and I prefer bone.



Ruphus -> RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (May 15 2014 8:20:14)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

quote:

For a warm tone, logically it should be something rather towards the soft side of the material palette.
From there I suppose good old bone to serve you best. ( Bone should be softer than ivory.)


Depending which ivory and which bone the hardness varies. Ivory from different kinds of animals has different density and hardness. It also depends whether is it fossil ivory or new ivory.

Bone is bone, ivory is from hair cells. Weird huh/.


You are erring here, Stephen.
Ivory should always be harder than any bone, and it is comprised 60% of dentin and 40% of cartilage-like substance. On the Mohs scale of hardness it ranks between 2-3; bone around 5.

What comes from hair cells are rhionceros´ horns which neither have something in common with ivory nor with common horn.

Ruphus



gerundino63 -> RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (May 15 2014 8:34:13)

Otto Vowinkel, a dutch classical luthier have experimented a while with ivory.
He stopped with it, to his taste the sound is a bit harsh / shrill.



keith -> RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (May 15 2014 11:52:37)

the only issue with ivory is the legal problems of selling and transportation. you might want to leave the ivory at home if traveling outside of your native country.



xirdneH_imiJ -> RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (May 15 2014 11:58:40)

i will probably have them all made, and try - right now i'm leaning towards ivory, of course if and when i sell, that'll be a different situation...
thanks for all the input!



tele -> RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (May 15 2014 12:59:46)

Is there really a difference in sound be it camel, ivory or cow? I am very sceptical about that



estebanana -> RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (May 15 2014 13:17:20)

quote:

ou are erring here, Stephen.
Ivory should always be harder than any bone, and it is comprised 60% of dentin and 40% of cartilage-like substance. On the Mohs scale of hardness it ranks between 2-3; bone around 5.

What comes from hair cells are rhionceros´ horns which neither have something in common with ivory nor with common horn.

Ruphus
 


Well, l've owned and carved ivory from walrus, elephant and narwhal tusks and compared it to bone from cows. And experience with actual material indicates ivory and bone hardness is variable sample to sample and different species to species.

You can submit your shop experience with both bone and ivory if you care to.



gj Michelob -> RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (May 15 2014 13:42:51)

quote:

My guitar has a very dry tone, and I'm looking for something to make it a little bit warmer.


I thought Paco's signature on your guitar took care of increasing the temperature to a "warmer feel"...

Seriously, as Anders and S. Faulk seem to also recommend, I wouldn't even dwell on the synthetic material option. Bone, for saddle, nut and even for the pegs on your tuning machines.



xirdneH_imiJ -> RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (May 15 2014 14:26:41)

the nut is bone (cow I assume) but if there's enough material I'll try to have that made out of the other two as well and start experimenting...



SephardRick -> RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (May 15 2014 14:36:01)

quote:

The US just two months ago instituted a rather draconian ivory ban policy and you never know how airport security personnel will interpret the policy on the spot.

There will be increasing difficulty with international travel with ivory components on guitars and instruments and I strongly advise against using it for that and other reasons.


Hey Steve,

Thanks for the heads up. That's one more policy the TSA has to hassle us with.



SephardRick -> RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (May 15 2014 14:45:09)

Tried Tusq and cow bone too. My perception is bone give more definition and projection than synthetic saddles on nylon string guitars.


Although, I might add Tusq sounds better on some steel string instruments - if you are into that.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (May 15 2014 15:03:51)

quote:

Tried Tusq and cow bone too. My perception is bone give more definition and projection than synthetic saddles on nylon string guitars.


Although, I might add Tusq sounds better on some steel string instruments - if you are into that.


My experinece is the same but i havent tried tusq on steelstrings. Maybe I should give it a try.



SephardRick -> RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (May 15 2014 15:59:19)

quote:

My experinece is the same but i havent tried tusq on steelstrings. Maybe I should give it a try


Surprisingly, I found Tusq saddles on steel strings reduced some of the steel string brittleness and some of the unwanted harmonics on a dreadnaught design. Especially on a 12-string. Also, I found the instruments sustained longer.



Ruphus -> RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (May 15 2014 16:18:23)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

You can submit your shop experience with both bone and ivory if you care to.


You must be right. Scientifical odds, periodic system, tables for material properties, density scales and thelikes are not to be trusted.
Better one take a file or saw and make sure about it.

There exists no bone as hard like ivory. And that for good reason of element and structure.
You have merely been mistaken, just like with the claim that ivory would grow of hair follicle. ( Maybe in your shop though? [:D])

If you can´t take such obvious and verifiable fact, how about cooking ivory?
It will finally soften the material and allow to preserve the stainless-steel vision on the matter.

Ruphus



tijeretamiel -> RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (May 15 2014 20:17:45)

Unbleached cattle bone is harder than bleached cattle bone, but it seems near enough impossible to find as most prefer the bleached white version which is softer. My blanca has a unbleached cattle bone nut and I like that the most of the ones I own.

I myself would never buy a Ivory saddle/nut or a guitar with it. Not just for ethical reasons, but for tonal reasons of adding a metallic tang to the sound of the guitar.

There are other animal bones/horns which can be used, I've come across other examples including Giraffe bones, from the knees I think which are I think the hardest animal bone/horn around, but again it's supposed to add a metallic tang to the sound.

When it comes to steel strings, I really like Tusq nuts which is a very unfashionable choice in the acoustic guitar community. I don't think the sound is better with Tusq nuts, but I've found I break fewer strings with a Tusq nut than with a bone nut.



Jeff Highland -> RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (May 15 2014 21:40:37)

quote:

You are erring here, Stephen.
Ivory should always be harder than any bone, and it is comprised 60% of dentin and 40% of cartilage-like substance. On the Mohs scale of hardness it ranks between 2-3; bone around 5.


Rufus, please note that when referring to the mohr's scale, the higher number is always the harder material.
If, as you state, ivory is 2-3 and bone is around 5 then bone is the harder material.



estebanana -> RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (May 15 2014 23:13:17)

quote:

You must be right. Scientifical odds, periodic system, tables for material properties, density scales and thelikes are not to be trusted.
Better one take a file or saw and make sure about it.

There exists no bone as hard like ivory. And that for good reason of element and structure.
You have merely been mistaken, just like with the claim that ivory would grow of hair follicle. ( Maybe in your shop though? )

If you can´t take such obvious and verifiable fact, how about cooking ivory?
It will finally soften the material and allow to preserve the stainless-steel vision on the matter.

Ruphus



YOU MEAN THE BIG WHITE THING GROWING OUT OF AN ELEPHANTS JAW IS A TOOTH LIKE SUBSTANCE!!

OH MY GOD! ALERT THE MEDIA.



rojarosguitar -> RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (May 16 2014 0:00:18)

I quite like TUSQ. It seems to emphasize the overtones more without killing the fundamentals. In the end it depends on the guitar and your taste. Bone also comes in very different qualities. Bleached bone is different from natural dried bone.

I would not use ivory on the grounds of increasing problems. There was a dramatic story about two ivory flutes destroyed by the customs officials on the spot at the airport...


https://www.artsjournal.com/slippeddisc/2013/12/outrage-at-jfk-as-customs-men-smash-flutes.html
See also:

http://www.artsjournal.com/slippeddisc/2014/03/an-official-warning-on-taking-instruments-into-the-usa.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+artsjournal%2FbQrW+%28Slipped+disc%29

http://www.americanorchestras.org/advocacy-government/travel-with-instruments/endangered-species-material/ivory-ban-impact-on-orchestras.html


http://www.violinist.com/discussion/response.cfm?ID=25377



Ruphus -> RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (May 16 2014 1:28:26)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Highland

Rufus, please note that when referring to the mohr's scale, the higher number is always the harder material.
If, as you state, ivory is 2-3 and bone is around 5 then bone is the harder material.


I stand corrected.
Still, ivory ranks harder than bone.


quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

YOU MEAN THE BIG WHITE THING GROWING OUT OF AN ELEPHANTS JAW IS A TOOTH LIKE SUBSTANCE!!

OH MY GOD! ALERT THE MEDIA.


Alright, but first we need to inform them about how teeth grow from hair cells. hehehe[:D]

Ruphus



Jeff Highland -> RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (May 16 2014 1:52:03)

quote:

I stand corrected.
Still, ivory ranks harder than bone.


huh?
diamond is 10
you say ivory is 2-3 and bone is 5, how does that make ivory harder



estebanana -> RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (May 16 2014 3:31:57)

Here is a document from the Whitehouse outlining the new ivory policies.

There are a lot of problems with these policies from the standpoint of someone who owns old instruments or wants to travel with them or sell them.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/02/11/fact-sheet-national-strategy-combating-wildlife-trafficking-commercial-b


Here's an article by George Gruhn with commentary on how this effects those of us in the business. I have attached it as jpg.

All the other websites about instruments that I frequent have had major discussions about this ivory ban issue. It might be worth posting a separate thread about this with these sources noted as th OP of this thread had no intention of spurring the conversation away form simply choosing a material for a saddle. So I will start a new thread to list these documents as way getting the information to those who may need to know.

If you are planning to travel with or sell an instrument with ivory parts and you want it to enter or leave the US it might be a good idea to review this information.

The reasons to post these notices is to raise awareness. The owners of instruments with ivory parts should know this policy. One to keep safe the instruments they own and two to write letters and make phone calls to congress to change this draconian policy or rewrite it to make it favorable for those who own old instruments.

_____________________________

As for the issue of hardness of ivory and bone, it is as I said earlier, the comparison needs to be done sample by sample. There is no absolute hardness for ivory. The hardness varies from species to species and changes with the age of the material.

This can be conformed by dozens of people in the bow, guitar and violin business as a truth. As far as the Mor test, or as we used to call it in geology class the "scratch test" it means that one type of material can scratch another material and as that happens the test builds an index of which materials are harder. It is a test based on comparative hardness.

Comparative hardness of ivory vs. bone changes according to each sample. In most cases bone is harder than ivory, but there can be a certain sample of ivory that will be harder then a certain sample of bone, but in most cases ivory is scratchable with bone. And that is the basis of the Mor test.

Both ivory and bone will make saddles, but as I first threw up the flag of caution, ivory is political today and bone is not.



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Ruphus -> RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (May 16 2014 8:55:46)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Highland

quote:

I stand corrected.
Still, ivory ranks harder than bone.


huh?
diamond is 10
you say ivory is 2-3 and bone is 5, how does that make ivory harder


You don´t want to understand.
I said I stand corrected, so forget about the quoted numbers.

Here are more accurate ones:

Ivory: (effective hardness) ~ 5 for hippopotamus and narwhal ivory, which are slightly harder than elephant ivory; [2½ -<3 per Webster, 1948-1949]

Bone: (effective hardness) 5; [2½ - Webster, 1948-1949]

And with that I stand corrected on the relation of the materials as well. Obviously bone can be as hard as ivory, which I would had not thought.
I used to think that dentin comes closer to enamel than bone, which must have been a mistake.

Ruphus



Jeff Highland -> RE: Saddle bone - ivory or camel? (May 16 2014 9:45:39)

quote:

You don´t want to understand


No I merely expect that when someone makes snide remarks about the superiority of published scientific data, over workshop experience, that they should have some understanding of what they are presenting, rather than getting it round the wrong way.
I have no experience with Ivory and make no comment about its properties sonic or physical



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