Jose Romanillos new book (Full Version)

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Joan Maher -> Jose Romanillos new book (May 6 2014 13:11:34)

Did anyone buy this? I finished reading it and found his view very interesting sounds like he could of been a flamenco guitar maker at heart - and he really dislikes the use of cedar for tops (only fit for roof tiles!?)



constructordeguitarras -> RE: Jose Romanillos new book (May 6 2014 13:24:34)

I will read it as soon as I can get it. Do you know where to order it from?



Joan Maher -> RE: Jose Romanillos new book (May 6 2014 13:47:11)

http://www.romanillosguitarbooks.com/



constructordeguitarras -> RE: Jose Romanillos new book (May 6 2014 14:31:50)

Thanks, Joan!

I read his first book, about Torres, and found it to be excellent. I see that this is his third book, about his methods of making guitars. His second book, which I haven't read either, sounds very interesting, especially because it tells what tools were used in Spanish luthiers' workshops since the year 1200. I will have to wait for a few more guitar orders to come in before I can order his 2nd and 3rd books. My son needs a new computer....



aarongreen -> RE: Jose Romanillos new book (May 6 2014 14:48:52)

I have it and have given it a few read throughs. It's very interesting for sure. It's not really a consecutive step by step construction book but rather gives you a lot of insight into how he does certain things and his overall feelings and approach to guitar making.
He's one of my favorite builders and as such it's great to have this book to refer to (esp as I am building a Romanillos inspired guitar for a client who is a big Romanillos collector….)



BarkellWH -> RE: Jose Romanillos new book (May 6 2014 15:29:07)

quote:

and he really dislikes the use of cedar for tops (only fit for roof tiles!?)


I'm with Romanillos on the use of cedar tops, especially for flamenco guitars. Jose Ramirez III pioneered the use of cedar tops on flamenco guitars. In my opinion flamenco guitars with cedar tops lack the crisp, percussive sound produced by spruce tops combined with cypress. Nevertheless, those who favor cedar tops claim that they do not take as long to "open up." Once again, it probably depends on one's subjective opinion.

Cheers,

Bill



Joan Maher -> RE: Jose Romanillos new book (May 6 2014 15:35:28)

I get the feeling he dislikes cedar combined with the Modern approach (aka Greg Smallman) to guitar making. He does make a good point that they put so much effort into volume and projection and they all end up been mic'd up in concert halls.. but I think there was a long thread about guitar volume here before..



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Jose Romanillos new book (May 6 2014 15:37:06)

quote:

In my opinion flamenco guitars with cedar tops lack the crisp, percussive sound produced by spruce tops combined with cypress.


What do you base this on and which cedar top blancas did you try that made you think like this?

I´ve tried a few very bad cedar top flamenco guitar and I´ve tried some good ones and personally I have problems with making them as crisp and percussive as the guitars I build with spruce. Its a matter of accepting the wood as its own premisses.
You can find classical builders like Fleta that prefered cedar over spruce.

The biggest problem we have with cedar is all the predjudices and myth talk you can read on the internet.



jshelton5040 -> RE: Jose Romanillos new book (May 6 2014 16:03:08)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson
The biggest problem we have with cedar is all the predjudices and myth talk you can read on the internet.

Quite true Anders but I'm biased. I've always preferred the sound of cedar over spruce.



Joan Maher -> RE: Jose Romanillos new book (May 6 2014 16:20:43)

Personally I like Cedar especially that nice 2A you built Anders..

I just find it curious that such a renowned builder like Romanillos can have such a dislike for a good tonewood like cedar...



Ruphus -> RE: Jose Romanillos new book (May 6 2014 16:25:57)

Most of my guitars were cedar topped. It just was the fashion after Ramirez´trend setting.
From there had my first conscious spruce experience relatively late in life, and was surprised positively enough to spend a second thought on it.

I do own really sweet cedar-top guitars, but spruce seems to meet my taste best.

BTW, what is this?


( I suspect cedar, right?)

Ruphus

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BarkellWH -> RE: Jose Romanillos new book (May 6 2014 20:47:05)

quote:

What do you base this on and which cedar top blancas did you try that made you think like this?


I base it on the sound produced when I played a 1990 Jose Ramirez III flamenco with a cedar top. It was only one example, but it was built by the luthier who was responsible for introducing cedar to a wider audience.

Cheers,

Bill



jshelton5040 -> RE: Jose Romanillos new book (May 6 2014 23:09:34)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

I base it on the sound produced when I played a 1990 Jose Ramirez III flamenco with a cedar top. It was only one example, but it was built by the luthier who was responsible for introducing cedar to a wider audience.


Bill,
I have owned two Ramirez cedar top blancas. They were both unbelievably bad guitars. However I have played some cedar top Ramirez blancas that were spectacular...that's what caused me to stupidly buy two guitars sight unseen from Ramirez. You can't base an opinion on one guitar, especially a guitar built to a rigid set of plans with farmed out parts and perhaps a 3rd party applied finish. The same applies to Conde and a bunch of other mass produced guitars. I've played Conde guitars that were absolute junk and others that were excellent. If you buy a guitar without playing it you are much more likely to get something worth having from a "real" luthier who does everything himself than you are from shop with a bunch of guys building to pre-set rigid dimensions. I have to assume that most of the big makers in Spain are nothing more than parts from third party vendors assembled by paid-by-the-hour employees. That's the way I'd do it if I wanted to produce a lot of guitars but being a moron I've chosen to build them one at a time and starve like most "real" luthiers.



Jim Kirby -> RE: Jose Romanillos new book (May 7 2014 0:25:52)

My standard guitar is based on the 73 Romanillos plan that has been around. Seems like everyone asks for a cedar top anyway. The plan in his book that follows the same bracing pattern has beefed up the fans in width a little, and the waist has also experienced a small degree of spread (how unusual is that? [:)] )

I got the impression from someone reporting on Delcamp (can't remember the thread) that Jose wasn't badmouthing cedar as a guitar wood so much as he was simply expressing his physical distaste for the wood - he finds the smell unbearable and simply doesn't want to deal with it.



constructordeguitarras -> RE: Jose Romanillos new book (May 7 2014 3:53:30)

quote:

I have to assume that most of the big makers in Spain are nothing more than parts from third party vendors assembled by paid-by-the-hour employees.


Like the Japanese auto makers figured out.



timoteo -> RE: Jose Romanillos new book (May 7 2014 4:53:28)

quote:


quote:

I have to assume that most of the big makers in Spain are nothing more than parts from third party vendors assembled by paid-by-the-hour employees.


Like the Japanese auto makers figured out.


It would be a mistake to assume that Japanese auto makers just put the parts together and added no value to the end product. Read "The Machine that Changed the World" by Womack, Jones, and Roos for a fascinating study of how the Japanese revolutionized manufacturing and were able to create better cars than the rest of the world.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Jose Romanillos new book (May 7 2014 7:06:35)

quote:


quote:

What do you base this on and which cedar top blancas did you try that made you think like this?


I base it on the sound produced when I played a 1990 Jose Ramirez III flamenco with a cedar top. It was only one example, but it was built by the luthier who was responsible for introducing cedar to a wider audience.

Cheers,

Bill


Bill, here you have the problem. 1 guitar makes you think all guitars made with cedar soundboards are bad....
So, I´m sure you have tried a spruce top guitar from a wellknown maker that you didn´t like? If so, did you come to the conclusion that all spruce top guitars are bad?

The internet is FULL of stories like this.



Ruphus -> RE: Jose Romanillos new book (May 7 2014 10:16:10)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

The internet is FULL of stories like this.


What could be the alternative?
The traditional media maybe and its vast of concertized editorials?

( Just look how right now the big gamblers have ignited one other of their common bush fires in Ukraine while spoon feeding themselves through their media as the peace makers now stepping in against the imperialistic Russia. And see how their global editorial so blindly reliable works with brain washing the mainstream.)

The internt is the unique counter to the mogul´s upside-down agenda and priceless in terms of resource.
And as long as one is somewhat firm in discerning private opinions from possible facts ( and at best checking it out then), uncomparably closer to the economical / societal, political truth than any of the established news and report formats of broadcasting and print media.
-

If it be however about the usefulness of us trying to make clear what is our opinion on the one hand and what taken from special resource on the other hand, I can fully agree on that.

Ruphus



aarongreen -> RE: Jose Romanillos new book (May 7 2014 11:49:24)

I spent some time with Jose at the 1995 GAL convention. I was very young having just turned 21 and I saw him sitting alone on more than a few occasions over the course of the convention. Not being terribly modest or shy.. I made the most of the opportunity….

He was very gracious with his advice, very tolerant of all questions I peppered him with and did not go into any great detail about his opinions, in that regard he struck me as someone who doesn't operate much in shades of grey, pretty much black or white, at least when it comes to the guitar.

He's a self taught builder at a time when that really meant what it sounds like. His guitars always shows his hand and personality. They are elegant and human and possess a great deal of old world charm. His book is much the same so I'd say both reflect his personality to some degree.



Joan Maher -> RE: Jose Romanillos new book (May 7 2014 13:46:00)

It comes across in the book that he has strong views on guitar making - I was watching a masterclass video of Julian Bream who sponsored Romanillos for many years who was incredibly passionate about the guitar as an instrument... They must have had some great conversations :)



BarkellWH -> RE: Jose Romanillos new book (May 7 2014 17:50:44)

quote:

Bill, here you have the problem. 1 guitar makes you think all guitars made with cedar soundboards are bad....


I didn't say that the cedar top guitar was "bad," Anders. I said that I didn't care for it on a flamenco guitar because, at least the one I tried, lacked the crisp, percussive sound that one gets with spruce tops. As a highly regarded luthier yourself, what do you think? In your opinion do cedar top flamencos sound as crisp and percussive as those with spruce tops? I realize that a lot of this is subjective, but I would be interested in your opinion as a luthier regarding the advantages (and disadvantages) of cedar vs. spruce tops on flamenco guitars.

Cheers,

Bill



estebanana -> RE: Jose Romanillos new book (May 7 2014 23:42:57)

I like cedar tops, but a hard sell to flamencos because they get dinged easy and the perception is they are not as good as spruce. I think some high level players used cedar, Paco for one. There are some Gerundinos with cedar tops that are not just good, but great. You can hear a great one on Paco del Gastor's Nimbus recording- just skip the first 11 minute long cut.

Cedar tops are not for everyone on flamenco guitars.

Romanillos said he like cypress classicals, that automatically puts him in a higher class of maker for me. He's not obsessed with boutique hard woods and says you can make a good one with basic materials. His bottom line seems to be a perfectly cut top and it sounds like he makes no compromise there.

Guitar making has been made into so many things that it's not by the market and new products that it's good to recognize the guys like Romanillos who just figured it out. It's difficult to take that stance today because someone will say you're not progressive if you don't embrace the new methods and technological ways of analyzing, but it's funny because when faced with a guitar build with a Romanallios ethic and a good sound they will agree it's a valid place to come from.



Ricardo -> RE: Jose Romanillos new book (May 8 2014 2:46:58)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

quote:

Bill, here you have the problem. 1 guitar makes you think all guitars made with cedar soundboards are bad....


I didn't say that the cedar top guitar was "bad," Anders. I said that I didn't care for it on a flamenco guitar because, at least the one I tried, lacked the crisp, percussive sound that one gets with spruce tops. As a highly regarded luthier yourself, what do you think? In your opinion do cedar top flamencos sound as crisp and percussive as those with spruce tops? I realize that a lot of this is subjective, but I would be interested in your opinion as a luthier regarding the advantages (and disadvantages) of cedar vs. spruce tops on flamenco guitars.

Cheers,

Bill


Paco de Malaga was the first flamenco player I ever saw live. I probably saw him playing that 1990 Ramirez at that time. I remember because I had a ramirez Cedar top classical and it sounding nothing so cool as his guitar. I always assumed it was about the back and side wood more. I played it again a few weeks ago at his house, very nicely constructed instrument and I liked the sound it was definitely very flamenco sounding. Only thing was maybe a little less percussive than a good Conde...but not so sure it is because of the wood or because of the build. Tomatito's guitar was very punchy and percussive despite it being basically like my Ramirez 1A classical was in terms of looks. I admit I could be mistaken about the top being spruce and not cedar despite it's looks. If that be the case probably I would agree, in general, Cedar is not making the better flamenco attack. But a true objective test is to compare two of the same make and model with different tops. Here is tomatito playing a quite percussive Ramirez:

http://youtu.be/W7Ew_nw3zak



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Jose Romanillos new book (May 8 2014 6:58:31)

quote:


quote:

Bill, here you have the problem. 1 guitar makes you think all guitars made with cedar soundboards are bad....


I didn't say that the cedar top guitar was "bad," Anders. I said that I didn't care for it on a flamenco guitar because, at least the one I tried, lacked the crisp, percussive sound that one gets with spruce tops. As a highly regarded luthier yourself, what do you think? In your opinion do cedar top flamencos sound as crisp and percussive as those with spruce tops? I realize that a lot of this is subjective, but I would be interested in your opinion as a luthier regarding the advantages (and disadvantages) of cedar vs. spruce tops on flamenco guitars.

Cheers,

Bill


Bill, go back and read your first post... If you had written what you write in this post, I would have answered differently.
I have, a few days ago, in another thread answered what I think about cedar and flamencos:
quote:
I really like cedar soundboards on blancas. Kind of perplexed they are not that popular. quote

My answer:
"I like them to and that 117 guitar really plays well. The problem is that people "think" they dont like cedar. They have read it on the internet, so when they try a guitar with a cedar top, they already believe they wont like it.
Another problem is that many builders dont control cedar to well on flamenco guitars. Often they end up being to soft and muddy or they have to much of that "cedar ring" in its voice."


To me its like choosing between Bourgogne and Bordeux wine.



aarongreen -> RE: Jose Romanillos new book (May 8 2014 12:00:30)

Here's a cedar blanca for you




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