Few questions about flamenco guitar (Full Version)

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ZaidRockso -> Few questions about flamenco guitar (May 2 2014 19:53:59)

Right so i'm relatively new to flamenco, trying to read and learn as much about it.

Ok so my first question is regarding compas , is Compas 100% Strict? I mean i'm trying to learn compas one by one so i get an understanding, rather than mixing up between all of them , and i'm looking into Alegrias now, So the compas is
1 2 THREE 4 5 SIX 7 EIGHT 9 TEN 11 TWELVE . Is this strict?

I mean does the thre 3 6 8 10 12 have to stand out / be accented?
Will the 1 2 4 5 7 9 11 never be accented ? I sometimes listen to alegrias pieces and i can a 1 being emphasized or a 7 and a 9 being emphasized, and at time i can't even pinpoint the 3 6 8 10 12 because i don't hear any accents, either they're even, or silent.

Now falsetas within an alegrias composition, Do these also have to obey the compas , where it accents and where it doesn't?

Thanks i realize my question is broad, but i think this is a good place to ask!



Leñador -> RE: Few questions about flamenco guitar (May 2 2014 20:09:01)

It's so complicated........
Even extremely good players can't always tell why something works, it may not follow rules but it works, it sounds right.
Your ONLY option:
Mimic, learn and listen to things that have already been established, eventually(years) you'll hear things better and better. It's not going to just click, and you get it. It's gradual and little pieces at a time.



Aretium -> RE: Few questions about flamenco guitar (May 2 2014 20:13:29)

I think its best to just get falsetas and compas chording and play it to a metronome but EXACLTY how its written out/played. As a beginner its better to work on rhythm ratehr then compas first. So when playing falsetas to a metronome don't waste beats but play it exactly how you heard it, then slowly when you grasp it you can play to a loop.

Compas is flamenco.



ZaidRockso -> RE: Few questions about flamenco guitar (May 2 2014 20:16:26)

That's the thing though, Any flamenco guitarist says compas is the most important thing, and if i can't understand it, can't count it when i listen to a piece, how am i going to progress, i've been playing electric guitar Mostly heavy rock for 10 years, and what i did was mimic everything i like and learn from tabs, eventually when i realized my timing was awful, my compositions were never on time, so i had to go back to scratch with regards to timing and took me a very long time to feel confident about timing. and i really don't want to repeat where i blindly mimic and not understand.



guitarbuddha -> RE: Few questions about flamenco guitar (May 2 2014 20:18:29)

Hi Zaid.

The thing is the word 'accent' can mean a lot of things.

Even in Rock music in 4/4 it is ambiuous. The chords change on one and three so there are accents on one and three. But there are also accents on two and four otherwise it sound terrible. So are there accents on one two three and four ? Well yes and no. Cause if the answer was yes then all four beats are accented so there would be no accents and we would be right back at the start.

There are lots of different types of 'accents' sometimes an accent is a downbeat and sometimes an upbeat and sometimes the fourth in a group of semiquavers approaching the place where one expects an accent.

Confusing right !!!!!!!!

There is nothing to be done but to keep on doing as much listening as possible.

Sorry for the non answer.

D.



Leñador -> RE: Few questions about flamenco guitar (May 2 2014 20:25:40)

How are you learning??? Books?? Videos?? Teacher?? If so which ones??



ZaidRockso -> RE: Few questions about flamenco guitar (May 2 2014 20:29:59)

Videos and internet text, I'm planning to join Jason mcguire's website thing since i see all of his lessons have a direct lesson , and then a lesson with counting the compas, so that might help me, should be next thursday.

And Guitarbuddha thanks for trying to explain, i kind of understand what you mean, i'll try listen to more flamenco music, so i have a bigger picture of compas



mark indigo -> RE: Few questions about flamenco guitar (May 2 2014 21:19:35)

sometimes those things you read about compás give a false impression.

If you take the accented compás you quote [1 2 THREE 4 5 SIX 7 EIGHT 9 TEN 11 TWELVE ] and try to impose that on everything you hear you can get very confused!
Yes you will hear that accent pattern a lot, but not all the time, and sometimes you will hear other versions.
There are other variations that all fit into that 12 beat cycle but accent the compás in different ways. A common one is to accent the 7 instead of the 6
Also eg. in llamadas often 1, 2, 3 is marked very strongly, and then 7, 8 and 10 or 7, 8, 9, 10.
In falsetas often you hear every 3rd beat accented - but it can be 1, 4, 7, 10 (especially in tremolo falsetas) or it can be 3, 6, 9, 12.

So yeah you need to "understand" what you are listening to, but you need to listen to a lot of stuff so you have something to try to understand (if that makes any sense)!

I saw a plaque on the wall in a Peña I visited that said "Saber como escuchar es un arte" - so true!



mark indigo -> RE: Few questions about flamenco guitar (May 2 2014 21:26:15)

quote:

Any flamenco guitarist says compas is the most important thing, and if i can't understand it, can't count it when i listen to a piece, how am i going to progress

As time goes on I think more and more often that "understanding" and counting are over-rated.
When I play for dance classes the dance students that always ask what beat they have to come in on, or ask where the 1 is, or whatever, are also the ones who don't listen, or can't hear it for themselves (they want to understand first and maybe listen after, not listen first).
Same in guitar workshops, guys not listening to the teacher demonstrating the falseta 'cos they are too busy asking for someone to write the falseta down for them....

I'm not saying don't try to understand things, or disregard counting completely, or don't use any other tools or materials in learning, but don't forget the traditional way of learning flamenco and the importance of listening.

Another thing. The artists we listen to mostly grew up with this musical culture.
It is more than just a style of music, it is a culture. And that takes a lot of listening, watching, and as much immersion as possible to catch up with!
But hey, I assume you got the rest of your life?[;)]



Mark2 -> RE: Few questions about flamenco guitar (May 2 2014 23:53:36)

Compas is strict in that it's always there. It's sort of like a train rolling down the tracks. You jump on, stay on, and your good. Lose it and it's like falling off the train. Accents are different. You don't have to hit the main accents all the time-it would be extremely boring if you did, both in falsetas and rhythm. But as a newbie, you don't want to be randomly trying out new accents. You want to focus on simple standard ways of expressing the compas, and simple falsetas until those patterns become part of your DNA. Then you'll start to hear other ways of doing it.
You'll start to hear when a player, singer, or dancer does something that's a little different, and you'll appreciate it for the cool variation it is. In flamenco, it's way more important to be spot on in the rhythm, than it is to play super clean. Better to fluff a note than to play it clean but fluff the rhythm. Compas is going on all the time. It's already there. You just have to learn to hear it, then play it, then play with it. Great flamencos toy with the rhythm like a cat toys with a mouse. they decide to accent 4 maybe in this part, then 7 1/2. the listeners hear him sorta going out, but then he plays a phrase that clears everything up, and it's like a resolution. But that's all for later. Learn it solid, then you can slowly vary the way you accent a particular phrase or rhythm.
quote:

ORIGINAL: ZaidRockso

Right so i'm relatively new to flamenco, trying to read and learn as much about it.

Ok so my first question is regarding compas , is Compas 100% Strict? I mean i'm trying to learn compas one by one so i get an understanding, rather than mixing up between all of them , and i'm looking into Alegrias now, So the compas is
1 2 THREE 4 5 SIX 7 EIGHT 9 TEN 11 TWELVE . Is this strict?

I mean does the thre 3 6 8 10 12 have to stand out / be accented?
Will the 1 2 4 5 7 9 11 never be accented ? I sometimes listen to alegrias pieces and i can a 1 being emphasized or a 7 and a 9 being emphasized, and at time i can't even pinpoint the 3 6 8 10 12 because i don't hear any accents, either they're even, or silent.

Now falsetas within an alegrias composition, Do these also have to obey the compas , where it accents and where it doesn't?

Thanks i realize my question is broad, but i think this is a good place to ask!



Erik van Goch -> RE: Few questions about flamenco guitar (May 3 2014 2:12:34)

:-)



ZaidRockso -> RE: Few questions about flamenco guitar (May 3 2014 12:04:18)

Thanks so much for clarifications guys , helped alot, i'll keep at it!



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