Why does my brand new Navarro look kind of... "Choppy"? (Full Version)

Foro Flamenco: http://www.foroflamenco.com/
- Discussions: http://www.foroflamenco.com/default.asp?catApp=0
- - Lutherie: http://www.foroflamenco.com/in_forum.asp?forumid=22
- - - Why does my brand new Navarro look kind of... "Choppy"?: http://www.foroflamenco.com/fb.asp?m=257773



Message

wiking -> Why does my brand new Navarro look kind of... "Choppy"? (Apr. 29 2014 0:29:28)

Hey guys, so I've gotten a lovely new Navarro student flamenca blanca and it seems to have survived transit in one piece. It sounds good to my ear, but the one thing I've noticed about it is that the notch for the nut, the area around the bridge and a few other spots have kind of a "choppy" appearance, the cuts look not very smooth, but is this acceptable? I'm used to assembly-line Fenders and Gibsons where everything lines up 100% perfectly, and this is my first flamenco from a luthier, so I understand the instrument is handmade and therefore each will have its own little imperfections... I'm just making sure that the one I got didn't slip quality control or anything. As far as I can tell it's all aethetic little things and the feel when I play it is really good. Is this common in sub-$2000 guitars? Thanks.

Here is a photo of the nut where I feel it could have been better done, especially for the price I paid (My $600 Taylor is immaculate in these areas).



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



wiking -> RE: Why does my brand new Navarro look kind of... "Choppy"? (Apr. 29 2014 0:51:06)

This is the flecking on the bridge.



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



estebanana -> RE: Why does my brand new Navarro look kind of... "Choppy"? (Apr. 29 2014 3:20:57)

At least if the glue is squeezing out you know they used enough!

Just wait until you get your first scratches on the face. Post the close up pictures here and wait for 70 people to tell you you need to get the top replaced. Then three people will tell you to ignore the scratches and take more lessons. Two people will advise cleaning up your technique so you don't make any extra movements and you play naturally and without stress. Then one guy will just tell you to quit flamenco before it consumes your life and you waste all your money going to Spain to see shows and buying guitars.

Who will you listen to?



wiking -> RE: Why does my brand new Navarro look kind of... "Choppy"? (Apr. 29 2014 3:55:23)

Hahaha, too true.

I take it, then, that all of this is noncritical and this is just the way these guitars come sometimes? The bridge thing doesn't bother me but I was quite surprised to see the nut cut with what appears to be a corkscrew. I'm just used to a clean nut groove, looks like it's not well secured in there but she stays in tune, plays well and intonates fine too. Maybe I should stop looking at the guitar and play the thing.



JuanDaBomb -> RE: Why does my brand new Navarro look kind of... "Choppy"? (Apr. 29 2014 6:41:15)

I have a Paracho guitar that came with the nut groove like that, maybe even more so. It fell out the first time I changed the strings and nicked the finish on the top. I actually get a laugh out of it now even though at the time I was pretty miffed.

How does it feel otherwise? Not too stiff in either hand, proper string heights, things like that? Do you have any other flamenco guitars you can compare it to?



Joan Maher -> RE: Why does my brand new Navarro look kind of... "Choppy"? (Apr. 29 2014 8:37:57)

How much did you pay for it? The nut is very sloppy.



escot -> RE: Why does my brand new Navarro look kind of... "Choppy"? (Apr. 29 2014 9:37:52)

Sad to see these imperfections coming out of the Navarro shop. I'm not sure if you got too great of a deal on this one for these reasons or what because my Navarro concert has perfect craftsmanship. I ordered directly from Francisco though so maybe that has something to do with it.



Ruphus -> RE: Why does my brand new Navarro look kind of... "Choppy"? (Apr. 29 2014 9:41:47)

I think Stephen summed it up perfectly.

The way I estimate the situation is that this maker provides you with properties in terms of response that you may otherwise expect from builds for distinctively higher price tag.
The occasional trade off could be less meticulous joining or cosmetic flaws, but that should be worth it for you who seeks an instrument that shall inspire playing wise and sonically.

And finally there is some weird circumstance with visually intriguing guitars.
I don´t see most of its beauty while holding them in hands, as all I see is maybe the neck and head. Even if standing before a mirror all my eyes note will be my own hands.

To enjoy all of its visual aesthetics I need to put it on a stand first (, lean back and at best smoke a cigarette that I actually havn´t touched since soon to be 2 years now >thirst!<).
...

So in a case like yours maybe don´t put it on a stand, and if, avoid looking at it.
... Until the day that you extensively appreciate its playable and sounding merrits. Then you will embrace it passionately; even with its nuts falling out of slots. [:D]

Go for the vibes!

Ruphus



Arash -> RE: Why does my brand new Navarro look kind of... "Choppy"? (Apr. 29 2014 10:16:26)

Don't let people tell you that you can't expect a guitar with acceptable craftmanship,
just because you didn't pay $10.000. That nut part looks like sh!t.
Send it back and tell him he should either inspect his inventory and send you his best one (I'm sure he has a lot of them) or send back your money. period.

You don't buy a guitar to avoid looking at it.
You buy a guitar which you love looking at and playing it.

Oh, and scratches and dings and dongs on flamenco guitars are cool.
Make as many as you can.



wiking -> RE: Why does my brand new Navarro look kind of... "Choppy"? (Apr. 29 2014 11:12:33)

I'm calling Ron at Memorial Music today guys, to see what he has to say. I'm really kind of surprised that after repeatedly emphasising the fact that I'm buying sight unseen he didn't even bother to mention this. Oh my. Other than that he was good to do business with and others have said lots of good things about him, so we will see what he has to say.



El Kiko -> RE: Why does my brand new Navarro look kind of... "Choppy"? (Apr. 29 2014 11:21:04)

I agree , that nut looks awful , he not doing himself any favors letting guitars like that out of his place .... I think you should start by contacting the seller with these pics and let him know your not happy about his level of inspection of instruments leaving .

see what he comes back with first . spend what you spend but you entitled to a certain level of craftsmanship . I took a plastic nut out of my old guitar from cordoba and replaced it with a bone one , this was all done in my garden shed with a 2 files big and small and a bit of emery paper ..didnt take too long and would have no problems showing the result to our top foro luthiers here ...its just fine and 100% better that that ill fitting photo.
It looks like he used a bought in standard nut , squared off at the bottom so not taking into account the neck angle , you may even find a shim under there if you lifted it out .



wiking -> RE: Why does my brand new Navarro look kind of... "Choppy"? (Apr. 29 2014 11:52:26)

After having it for an evening and sleeping on it, I doubt a 1200 dollar Almansa 447 would have had these issues. Just saying. It sounds and plays well, but not 1100 Canadian dollars well.

I would be weary of recommending anyone buy sight unseen from the Navarro workshop at this point. Unfortunately, I had no choice, since flamenco guitars are not stocked anywhere in my province.

This sucks. If I were anything less than obsessed with flamenco music I would be very discouraged at this point. I go to lengths to find a guitar after meticulously researching every possible maker, factory and "luthier", and this is what I get.



El Kiko -> RE: Why does my brand new Navarro look kind of... "Choppy"? (Apr. 29 2014 12:18:29)

its not too late ,, still time to contact them .still time to send it back ...still time to do a deal ...



wiking -> RE: Why does my brand new Navarro look kind of... "Choppy"? (Apr. 29 2014 12:19:18)

Could this even be repaired? It looks like there's been too much material removed from the bottom of the nut slot as well as the fretboard side where it doesn't make contact. UGH.



tri7/5 -> RE: Why does my brand new Navarro look kind of... "Choppy"? (Apr. 29 2014 12:36:40)

While the issues at hand are probably fine and not affecting the guitar except aesthetically (not saying it's right), I've never seen much consistency from the Navarro shop. You're not the first to make a post here regarding issues with Navarro's, while others seem to get a great guitar. The one I tried was unplayable from an action standpoint and may as well have been a classical.



Andy Culpepper -> RE: Why does my brand new Navarro look kind of... "Choppy"? (Apr. 29 2014 12:47:48)

I'm usually on the luthier's side with these things (though Navarro himself didn't make the guitar in this case) and some small imperfections can sometimes be charming (such as the small plane mark left on the headstock of Sabicas' Barbero that Brune notes in the plan).

But when it comes to the nut and saddle fitting well, sloppiness is quite a bit less appealing and often unacceptable.

I think if you really like the guitar you should keep it. There are certain things that a luthier could do to make that nut more snug.

But the fact that it wasn't made by Navarro himself makes it perfectly reasonable to return this if it bothers you a lot.



El Kiko -> RE: Why does my brand new Navarro look kind of... "Choppy"? (Apr. 29 2014 13:13:34)

There are indeed certain things that can be done with that nut ...but you shouldnt have to .. not with a new guitar ...I think if he went into the shop and played it and saw that and any other things it would be .....find me another guitar , or , if you sort these problems out I will buy it ...
The fact that it comes sight unseen by post does not change anything at all , least of all his expectations of having a quality instrument.

what would happen if i got a guitar from you Andy? , and brought it back in a few days with a slight workmanship issue ?....
what would you do ?

Any Luthier that let that one slip out , would apologize , thanks for bringing it to my attention ., get right on it ..return the guitar , as it should be ...
everyone happy , reputation saved ...as it should be ...

Maybe Navarro should be directed to this thread ....its his reputation after all .....

I still. say contact them and see which way they will go on this ....they can have first choice ,... thats fair too ...



Ricardo -> RE: Why does my brand new Navarro look kind of... "Choppy"? (Apr. 29 2014 14:15:37)

I have seen lots of odd imperfections like this even on very expensive master luthier guitars. Only thing that matters if functionality of the tool....sound and feel, are affected. Considering hand made instruments are more charming than machine cut assembly line instruments, I agree that little imperfections like this are "charming".



n85ae -> RE: Why does my brand new Navarro look kind of... "Choppy"? (Apr. 29 2014 14:27:40)

Ricardo is right.

This is very common on guitars from small shops, especially if they are not the 1A
models. I would play it and see how it plays, you might trade it back for one that
looks nicer but doesn't play as well.

For the price you pay for a Student Navarro, it's not going to be perfect.

Jeff



El Kiko -> RE: Why does my brand new Navarro look kind of... "Choppy"? (Apr. 29 2014 16:38:09)

I dont think so ...that little imperfection is not charming at all ,, its one of those things that would bug many people ...
I dont see why you cant have a guitar that plays well (for its price) and is well finished ,.
Surely that is a basic requirement,.. things that are 'charming' are usually knots or lines in the wood , or strange grain things , that dont effect sound or strengh of course . ,
This is not one of those things, its just being lazy and not paying attention,

I would write a cheque for that guitar and leave a 0 off the end of the price ..

'' .. sorry wasnt paying attention when writing the cheque , still you can cash it just the same ....''
[:-]



Joan Maher -> RE: Why does my brand new Navarro look kind of... "Choppy"? (Apr. 29 2014 16:46:02)

When I look at the poor workmanship on the nut I wonder how sloppy is the internal workmanship.

I had a 3f model from Ricardo Sanchis Carpio some years ago and it was an excellent guitar soundwise and craft wise..



Arash -> RE: Why does my brand new Navarro look kind of... "Choppy"? (Apr. 29 2014 17:02:30)

Also If Wiking should decide to resell this guitar later on ebay, the forum or whereever, and buy a better guitar in one or two years, have fun with the headaches and good luck trying to convince potential buyers that Nut part is charming.

It should be possible for the seller to give the guy a good looking and well
sounding guitar with good playability. Its not like there are not enough of these Navarro student guitars available. There should be one in his stock which plays and sounds well with cleaner workmanship



wiking -> RE: Why does my brand new Navarro look kind of... "Choppy"? (Apr. 29 2014 17:21:12)

I will say here that the internals look much better than the externals- all the braces are perfectly smooth, no running wood glue, nice clean joins, looks very well done inside. I still am waiting for Ron to get into the shop so I can call.



el carbonero -> RE: Why does my brand new Navarro look kind of... "Choppy"? (Apr. 29 2014 17:50:19)

what the problem ?

Cheap guitar = cheap finish .

That's just normal.



wiking -> RE: Why does my brand new Navarro look kind of... "Choppy"? (Apr. 29 2014 18:02:02)

What planet are you from that 1000 dollars is "cheap"? 900 USD = 986 Canadian + $101 Canadian UPS B.S. brokerage charges = $1100 Canadian I spent on this. A cheap guitar is a 350 dollar Yamaha. Funnily, I doubt those would have issues like this, I've never encountered a roughed-out Yamaha in 15 years of playing.

It really bothers me how a lot of people on this forum consider anything less than a $6000 Conde a cheap guitar. I'm a broke engineering student- I saved for this guitar and it took a while to get the funds. I wish people would stop insulting me by telling me that the price is insignificant. Just because it has nylon strings doesn't mean it shouldn't be held to the same standard as other acoustic guitars, factory or not.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Why does my brand new Navarro look kind of... "Choppy"? (Apr. 29 2014 18:22:11)

How does it play, how does it sound? Good, excellent, average? Secondly, are there any structural weaknesses that will leading it to self-destruct in a few years? If the guitar sounds good and plays well and isn't a candidate for implosion, you have yourself a deal. If it sounds and plays bad, it's a bad guitar even if it was made to NASA tolerances.

I remember Benito Huipe saying in his videotape that they used to use ropes and rocks and things to clamp the guitar back in the day. Maybe they still do.



El Kiko -> RE: Why does my brand new Navarro look kind of... "Choppy"? (Apr. 29 2014 19:04:16)

oh great ... now I got a cheap guitar 'cos I have a Yamaha CG171-SF..[:-][:-]

Actually its spot on inside and out . a great beginners guitar ...the only thing i did with it , was strangely enough , change the bridge and the nut for bone instead of plastic ,. ..I did that myself ... got a blank bone nut and carved it , filed slots and fitted it just fine .
and here it is ......non- luthier nut ....



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Why does my brand new Navarro look kind of... "Choppy"? (Apr. 29 2014 19:20:36)

quote:

Just because it has nylon strings doesn't mean it shouldn't be held to the same standard as other acoustic guitars, factory or not.


I agree but you really should think about the playability and sound, as this is the most important facet to any guitar. If these two are in place, then its possible that about a $100 worth of work might fix those pesky little cosmetic problems.



wiking -> RE: Why does my brand new Navarro look kind of... "Choppy"? (Apr. 29 2014 19:28:42)

Just off the phone with Ron. He was very understanding of my frustration and we decided for me to bring the guitar to a local luthier, get a quote on repairing the nut groove, and Ron would cover the expense. As I said the guitar sounds and plays well, so I'm more inclined to keep this one than start shipping guitars all over the continent on returns and replacements at great expense. I just hope that this can be fixed...



Arash -> RE: Why does my brand new Navarro look kind of... "Choppy"? (Apr. 29 2014 19:51:51)

Good solution.



Page: [1] 2    >   >>

Valid CSS!




Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET