RE: In praise of shorter nails. . . (Full Version)

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aeolus -> RE: In praise of shorter nails. . . (Apr. 25 2014 15:01:50)

quote:

ounds a bit of an odd size. I didn't know they made #3 buckshot? Why don't you just go with the popular 00 buckshot.

And if you want a bit more OOOmph, try the magnum load. . .

(Works really well on the beavers that rip up my fruit trees. . . .)


Didn't find any listing on line for 20ga. larger than #3. I bought first a box of sabot slug which is a slug encased in plastic the slug being a little over 1/2' dia. but I am concerned that as my shotgun is a 1928 model (it was my mothers bird gun) and as such has a full choke that is to say narrow and measuring the exit point of the barrel there is not much room to spare. Of course it will exit the barrel so what else happens should't be an issue.
You're kinda in over kill with 000 for badgers wouldn't you say?

Checking further it seems #3 is the max. for 20 ga. as with larger pellets they stack-up spoiling a good pattern.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: In praise of shorter nails. . . (Apr. 25 2014 15:16:15)

quote:

Are we talking about flamenco or classical guitar?
In flamenco playing with NO NAILS AT ALL is impossible and WILL sound like poop


Sorry Arash, but it doesnt have to be like that. Its sounds like poop when I play without nails and maybe when you do, but I´ve sat next to Niño Miguel, playing without nails. It was chaotic because it was Miguel, but the sound was very earthy and flamenco.
The reason, he had a ton of callus on all his his fingers and he really digged into the soul of the instrument. If that was poop sound, then going to the toilet must hurt like doing concrete.
To much nail, in my ears, often sound to clean and office boy like.



SephardRick -> RE: In praise of shorter nails. . . (Apr. 25 2014 15:40:29)

quote:

but I´ve sat next to Niño Miguel, playing without nails


Well, that is inspirational when you break a nail.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: In praise of shorter nails. . . (Apr. 25 2014 15:57:43)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

You are in good company, Britguy. In 1902, at the age of 50, Francisco Tarrega began cutting his nails as short as he possibly could, apparently because he thought the sound produced was much more to his liking than that produced with nails. He played without nails for the rest of his life.

Cheers,

Bill


From the preface to "F. Tarrega, Doce Composiciones para Guitarra" by Isaias Savio, Ricordi, Buenos Aires:

"En 1900 su salud [de Tarrega] inspiró cuidados por manifestarse la arterio-esclerosis, y el maestro ya no pudo pulsar su guitarra con aquel sonido puro y cristalino que tanto había contribuido a sus éxitos, viéndose en cambio obligado a cortarse las uñas por defectos que en ellas aparecían. Pero no se desanimó por ello, sino que siguió estudiando y conseguió realizar audiciones, aunque no de mucha importancia…."

The publisher and guitar historian Matanya Ophee tells me this is verbatim from "Diccionario de Guitarristas" by Domingo Prat, Buenos Aires. Prat knew Tarrega.

My translation:

"In 1900 Tarrega's health caused concern, due to the appearance of arteriosclerosis, and the maestro was no longer able to play his guitar with the pure and crystalline tone which had contributed so much to his success. Instead, he was obliged to cut his nails due to defects which appeared in them. But he was not discouraged by this, rather he continued practicing, and succeeded in giving concerts, though none of great importance."

Savio and Prat contend that Tarrega cut his nails due to defects in them caused by hardening of the arteries, and that it had negative effects on his tone. This is controversial to some extent. Emilio Pujol, one of Tarrega's later pupils, taught and advocated playing without nails. Miguel Llobet, an earlier and more famous disciple of Tarrega, played with nails.

RNJ



Ramon Amira -> RE: In praise of shorter nails. . . (Apr. 25 2014 18:13:21)

quote:

yeah but that doesn't work with flamenco.
you need flesh+nail to get the desired flamenco sound.
otherwise with only flesh, it sounds like warm poop.


Not necessarily . . . . . This says it was recorded without nails.





Ramon



Arash -> RE: In praise of shorter nails. . . (Apr. 25 2014 18:21:08)

As far as I know, Grisha uses these

https://guitarplayernails.com/

In the second video, he HAS nails.... its just short compared to his usual length which is long.
He says "I have no nails", but don't take it literally.
When he says "its not suitable for playing", that means its not suitable for him, he normally has long nails compared to many other players.
I have my nails ALWAYS this short as shown in the video.

Again, people talked about having NO NAILS at all. Thats a completely different story



Ramon Amira -> RE: In praise of shorter nails. . . (Apr. 25 2014 18:25:14)

quote:

As far as I know, Grisha uses these

https://guitarplayernails.com/


Take a look at the second video I added after you read my post. Grisha actually states that he is playing without nails - of any kind - and even shows a close-up of his fingers - no nails.

Ramon



Arash -> RE: In praise of shorter nails. . . (Apr. 25 2014 18:28:02)

z6, ok gotcha.
But I would never recommand building up Callus on your finger tips instead of short nails, unless you really have no other choice because of some kind of a problem.

And even with hard callus, I can't imagine to get the full range of
possible sounds which you can get with nail and flesh.
Hearing Nino Miguel is probably always nice, then again he also played a guitar with 2 strings and was still nice.



Ramon Amira -> RE: In praise of shorter nails. . . (Apr. 25 2014 18:34:29)

Grisha says "I have no nails at all, and what I have is not suitable for playing." I'm sure he would never say that - and there would be no point in saying it - if he was employing nails in way whatsoever. He is specifically making the point that he can produce the sound he produces without the use of nails.

However, I agree with you for the most part - I can't imagine flamenco being played entirely without nails and sounding like anything. Picado is one thing, but I wonder if anyone could make things like arpeggios and tremolo come out, not to merntion raxsgueado.

Ramon



Arash -> RE: In praise of shorter nails. . . (Apr. 25 2014 18:38:46)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prominent Critic

Grisha says "I have no nails at all, and what I have is not suitable for playing." I'm sure he would never say that - and there would be no point in saying it - if he was employing nails in way whatsoever. He is specifically making the point that he can produce the sound he produces without the use on nails.

Ramon


Please Pause the video at 1:14 and look carefully. Vid quality is bad but you can see them. The White part of the nails.
Must be around 2 mm or so long. Which is around my (and many other players length).



Ramon Amira -> RE: In praise of shorter nails. . . (Apr. 25 2014 18:48:53)

quote:

Please Pause the video at 1:14 and look carefully. Vid quality is bad but you can see them. The White part of the nails.
Must be around 2 mm or so long. Which is around my (and many other players length).


Well, whatever . . . Maybe Grisha can tell us whether or not he used any part of whatever little nail he had.

But in any case, as I said, I agree with you that in general flamenco played entirely without nails can't sound like anything. Except maybe warm poop.

Ramon



Richard Jernigan -> RE: In praise of shorter nails. . . (Apr. 25 2014 20:14:41)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prominent Critic

Grisha says "I have no nails at all, and what I have is not suitable for playing." I'm sure he would never say that - and there would be no point in saying it - if he was employing nails in way whatsoever. He is specifically making the point that he can produce the sound he produces without the use of nails.

However, I agree with you for the most part - I can't imagine flamenco being played entirely without nails and sounding like anything. Picado is one thing, but I wonder if anyone could make things like arpeggios and tremolo come out, not to merntion raxsgueado.

Ramon


In the video Grisha goes on to state that you should always contact the string at the juncture of flesh and nail, and demonstrates. Perhaps he is saying that despite his nails being unsuitably short, he can still produce a brilliant sound by contacting the string at the proper point, and by pushing the string down with the stroke?

I attended the hour and a half master class Grisha and Jeremy Mouffe gave at the University of Texas at Austin Music School, the day before their recent concert here. Grisha had nails. He didn't say whether they were his own natural nails, or the artificial ones he endorses. But he did demonstrate varying the tone quality by altering the angle of attack of the nail on the string.

RNJ



Ramon Amira -> RE: In praise of shorter nails. . . (Apr. 25 2014 20:30:34)

quote:

In the video Grisha goes on to state that you should always contact the string at the juncture of flesh and nail, and demonstrates. Perhaps he is saying that despite his nails being unsuitably short, he can still produce a brilliant sound by contacting the string at the proper point, and by pushing the string down with the stroke?


Maybe. But in one of the videos the accompanying blurb by Grisha states "Recorded without nails."

Ramon



estebanana -> RE: In praise of shorter nails. . . (Apr. 26 2014 0:06:26)

quote:

Very true that!

Some manage to add enough or even a lot of flesh despite of long nails.
Usually, however, they seem to be lucky owners of perfectly straight nails.

Ruphus


Or they have dog paws for hands.



Erik van Goch -> RE: In praise of shorter nails. . . (Apr. 26 2014 9:07:35)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arash
Please Pause the video at 1:14 and look carefully. Vid quality is bad but you can see them. The White part of the nails.
Must be around 2 mm or so long. Which is around my (and many other players length).


The very few times in my life i really took guitar playing seriously i paired extremely short nails to excellent control and sound. In that periods of time my nails were even shorter then showed in that video. As a matter of fact i came to the conclusion that every molecule of nail visible behind the strings was ballast (frustrating my hard-earned natural relaxation and flow) and as such had to be removed. As a result my nails ended up having the length of a string diameter. Obviously this demands extreme control of your playing (which at the time i had) as well as a technique that supports/use and as such totally depends on having extremely short nails (it totally changed my way of playing). Every single day i had to remove the overnight grown of the nail in order not to get stuck into the strings, that's how precise the mechanism was. I can only do this with various hours of extremely dedicated/efficient training a day over a longer period of time.
If i only play every now and then i need longer nails, using different techniques. You can compare it with old tape recorders (using hard to push/switch buttons) and the later ones (using touch control buttons).

I'm pretty sure that when you grab a string with your nail (were the nail meets the finger tip) and remove every molecule of nail visible behind the string (ending up with a nail up to string diameter level) most of you will consider that (or better said confuse that) with "playing without nails", which in reality is quite a different thing. The idea is that when you hook your nail behind the string it is long enough to assure optimal grip and short enough to pass the string without resistance.... the wind of a blow dryer in low setting should be enough to launch it.



Ruphus -> RE: In praise of shorter nails. . . (Apr. 26 2014 9:18:07)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Or they have dog paws for hands.



Or seal flippers maybe. :OP

One thing that hasn´t been mentioned:

As you will be digging in deeper without nails the movements are being executed more pronounced. Benefitting a well defined neural imprint ( with more discrete sections of the movements).

I think that learning without nails is a very useful way to do. And that what you learned extensively without / with very short nails you will be executing just the more easily in the reduced movement of longer nails later on.

Ruphus



mark indigo -> RE: In praise of shorter nails. . . (Apr. 26 2014 10:08:03)

quote:

The very few times in my life i really took guitar playing seriously i paired extremely short nails to excellent control and sound. In that periods of time my nails were even shorter then showed in that video. As a matter of fact i came to the conclusion that every molecule of nail visible behind the strings was ballast (frustrating my hard-earned natural relaxation and flow) and as such had to be removed. As a result my nails ended up having the length of a string diameter. Obviously this demands extreme control of your playing (which at the time i had) as well as a technique that supports/use and as such totally depends on having extremely short nails (it totally changed my way of playing). Every single day i had to remove the overnight grown of the nail in order not to get stuck into the strings, that's how precise the mechanism was. I can only do this with various hours of extremely dedicated/efficient training a day over a longer period of time.

José Antonio Rodriguez showed me his right hand at a class with him and the nails were so short they didn't extend over the flesh of the fingertip at all - they looked almost like most guitarists left hand.



Erik van Goch -> RE: In praise of shorter nails. . . (Apr. 26 2014 10:18:19)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo


José Antonio Rodriguez showed me his right hand at a class with him and the nails were so short they didn't extend over the flesh of the fingertip at all - they looked almost like most guitarists left hand.


That's how mine looked as well, as a matter of fact my left hand nails generally are longer then my right hand nails were back then :-)



Ruphus -> RE: In praise of shorter nails. . . (Apr. 26 2014 10:40:05)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

- they looked almost like most guitarists left hand.


Is that how it is? ( No rhetorical question.)
With all the questioning on forums about glue, artificial nails etc.pp. I was thinking the fraction of long nails to be prevailing.
- And I always wondered why do they need that. Eventhough my nails have developed thin since many years now they always sufficed for playing demands.
( Only in my times as bar fly not, as I would break my thumb nail all too often. Specially when unlocking my motor bike after a bar hop. Yes, I used to be bonkers.)

Ruphus



Erik van Goch -> RE: In praise of shorter nails. . . (Apr. 26 2014 11:28:40)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

- they looked almost like most guitarists left hand.


Is that how it is? ( No rhetorical question)


It can be, if it's your cup of tea and your'e able/willing to invest the time and focus needed to obtain/maintain the matching technique.



Ruphus -> RE: In praise of shorter nails. . . (Apr. 26 2014 11:38:09)

My cousin is such a long-nail player ( doing quite well actually), and I thought long nailers where the majority among us.

Ruphus



Erik van Goch -> RE: In praise of shorter nails. . . (Apr. 26 2014 11:46:00)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

José Antonio Rodriguez showed me his right hand at a class with him .... they looked almost like most guitarists left hand.


I just compared plugging* my guitar with my right hand (longer nails) and my left hand (short nails) and it seems that

* my short nailed/untrained left hand often produce a better sound.
* the left hand nails are still way to long to react on minimal energy inputs... they remain stuck into the strings unless additional force is added (like my even shorter filed right hand experienced in my prime days after only 1 night of nail grown).

That's how short nails can/must be if you embrace zero string resistance, maximum relaxation and minimal input/disturbance of flow.

* i'm not able to plug the string with my short nailed left hand when applying "normal" guitar techniques because the nail won't be anywhere near the string dude to the flesh of the finger tip. But i am able to hook the string behind the nail when i carefully position it there. You will be amazed how much energy is needed to plug the string from that position i.o.w. how much energy is needed to make that small stroke of nail pass the string. You'll meet way less string resistance and could play with way less energy input if you reduced that already very short nail even more. That's exactly what i did in my prime days with my right hand.... start hooking the nail behind the string and make sure it slides of when even the slightest amount of pressure is added (the shorter the nail, the less energy needed to make it leave the string). Over time you will not only be able to do this with the nail carefully positioned/hooked into the string as a starting position, but also when plugging the string out of the air. Over time that few molecules of nail will find the string like a heat-seeking rocked, hitting the target with extreme precision time after time. Without daily practice to obtain/maintain that precision those nails won't be anywhere near the string dude to the flesh of the finger tips.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*I started carefully hooking the nail behind a string (applying optimal hand/finger positions based on proven but potentially optimizable biomechanics)
*Next add pressure on the string without fully plugging it, seeking the point it almost slides of (focus on energy input/relaxation/biomechanics).
*Switch/shuttle between starting position and the moment of almost sliding off (note how shorter nails need less energy input to reach that point of no return and how hand position and point of direction effects the results).
*Also go back in time, lifting and replanting the finger to study how it reaches that known position (focus on relaxation and biomechanics and the impact of making first contact)
*When you gain control (in biomechanics, precision and relaxation) hook the nail behind the sting and shorten the nail up to a point were even the slightest amount of energy input will make it leave the string.
*You'll end up with extremely short nails and incredible flow/control. That's how i did it.

On top of exercises like this i also studied the bigger moves/biomechanics of individual fingers. For arpeggio i would hook all 3 fingers to the matching string and then select 1 finger to (air)plug the string. First i lift that finger as high as possible (without stretching it) and then push it all the way towards the palm of my hand (again as far as possible, training the bigger muscles of the arm). At first i pass the string in the air (focussing on relaxation and biomechanics), then in upwards direction try to touch the string as lightly as possible (making sure the impact doesn't disturb the flow of the move) and then slowly increase the amount of finger/string contact, up to a point were i can hit it full force without disturbing the flow of the movement (this demands pairing perfect biomechanics and movement to perfect precision/relaxation). The more precise and relaxed your finger is the less likely it is to crash into the strings. In general i focus on a point in the distance, not on the actual finger/string interaction (which is studied like above). Hitting a string basically is a side effect of a relaxed finger passing the string on it's way to a point in the distance and as such is purely "accidental". The bigger moves i only apply as a warming up/study to refine biomechanics and to train the bigger arm muscles. In real playing i applied minimal movement with fairly stretched fingers.



BarkellWH -> RE: In praise of shorter nails. . . (Apr. 26 2014 13:55:28)

quote:

Savio and Prat contend that Tarrega cut his nails due to defects in them caused by hardening of the arteries, and that it had negative effects on his tone.


Tarrega's health did decline, and I have read where his nails began splitting. This, of course, leads to the conclusion that the sound thus produced with his nails was less to his liking than that produced without nails. For the rest of his life (he died in 1909 at the age of 57) Tarrega cut his nails as short as he possibly could, almost digging into the flesh in order to do so.

Cheers,

Bill



estebanana -> RE: In praise of shorter nails. . . (Apr. 27 2014 0:35:18)

I was really in my hopes someone would start a thread called in Praise of Shorter Skirts.....



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