Stradivarius? You'd be better off with a modern violin (Full Version)

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Arash -> Stradivarius? You'd be better off with a modern violin (Apr. 10 2014 4:40:39)

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/apr/08/violin-stradivarius-old-new-better-scientific-test

Pretty sure this is the case with many guitars as well.



Leñador -> RE: Stradivarius? You'd be better off with a modern violin (Apr. 10 2014 4:56:14)

Very interesting, I'd kill to see this carried out with guitars.



ToddK -> RE: Stradivarius? You'd be better off with a modern violin (Apr. 10 2014 6:30:33)

Here they go again trying to quantify things that can't be quantified.

People buy Strads for their antiquity and rarity, not necessarily because
they're "Better".

Any sane person realizes that in art (beauty of tone) there is no "Better".

There is only one's opinion/perception. People hear what they want
to hear.
An instrument is worth what somebody will pay for it, period, end of story.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Stradivarius? You'd be better off with a modern violin (Apr. 10 2014 7:42:40)

Its not really something new.

The interesting thing is that soloist still choose to play them.
I can imagine that the whole feel and energy comming from the masters violins is very strong and makes the player believe that they play a better instrument than they play in reality.
Besides, many strads have been heavily modified over the years and are far from original. (You could say that they have been finetuned by someone else.)



el carbonero -> RE: Stradivarius? You'd be better off with a modern violin (Apr. 10 2014 8:48:41)

In flamenco the stradivarius is call "conde hermanos"



Morante -> RE: Stradivarius? You'd be better off with a modern violin (Apr. 10 2014 9:33:47)

quote:

In flamenco the stradivarius is call "conde hermanos"


True: in a blind test everything else sounds better[;)]



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Stradivarius? You'd be better off with a modern violin (Apr. 10 2014 10:32:39)

quote:


quote:

In flamenco the stradivarius is call "conde hermanos"


True: in a blind test everything else sounds better


10 points [:D][:D][:D]



Ruphus -> RE: Stradivarius? You'd be better off with a modern violin (Apr. 10 2014 11:18:40)

Last night I only cought a fraction of a documentary that dealt with visual delusion. Boy, can you say substantial.

It reminded me of studio auditionings, and how things will differ depending on bias, on the hour of the day / your physical / emotional shape while listening.

Not that experience could not change something in terms of reliable judge, but it accumulates only gradually over a long period of time, whereas the misleading / unrelated potential will be strong from the get go.
Notwithstanding, you will develop, learn what to look / listen for.

And then again, remaining exposed to trivial inefficiency like for instance the plain inability to accurately compare tones with more than two seconds of pause in between them.

A banal truism counter balancing your advanced taste that might find it justified to pay up to tens of additional grands for just some subtle vibes a certain instrument may provide.

Vibes laymen may not even notice, yet so thrilling to you.

Ruphus



Ricardo -> RE: Stradivarius? You'd be better off with a modern violin (Apr. 10 2014 13:32:00)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lenador

Very interesting, I'd kill to see this carried out with guitars.


Let's do it. I would like to be involved.

I try to be objective as possible but it's not easy. I think the test sounded very objective. What I notice with myself is, whenever I try a new guitar, no matter price or make, I notice all the little details I like that are DIFFERENT than my normal instrument. AFter a long time with it you get used to it. But then you return to your own instrument and all the little things that you normally take for granted suddenly jump out at you , and if I was at all considering buying or trading, I get smacked harshly with a "what the HELL were you thinking?!!" kind of thing. I bet the same thing happened to these violinists.



Leñador -> RE: Stradivarius? You'd be better off with a modern violin (Apr. 10 2014 13:57:40)

I wonder if we could get Trilogy or GSI to help out.....



Ricardo -> RE: Stradivarius? You'd be better off with a modern violin (Apr. 10 2014 14:07:00)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lenador

I wonder if we could get Trilogy or GSI to help out.....



No way, they are banking on the whole idea that people CAN'T tell the difference.



Leñador -> RE: Stradivarius? You'd be better off with a modern violin (Apr. 10 2014 14:11:17)

Hmmmm good point......
Someone's gotta supply a variety of instruments in one place.....



Paul Magnussen -> RE: Stradivarius? You'd be better off with a modern violin (Apr. 10 2014 14:12:51)

I remember seeing a study like this when I was at school. Rather than blindfold the musicians, they had the soloists play behind an acoustically transparent curtain, and asked a bunch of violin aficionados to pick which was the Strad (not which was better).

The result was that while most couldn’t do it, a very few could pick the Strad every time.

But results like come us no surprise to me. I remember one blindfold study on people who insisted on a certain brand of cigarettes, and would go to a different shop if that brand was out of stock.

Not only could nearly all of them not tell the difference, 7% of them couldn’t even tell if the cigarette was alight.



gj Michelob -> RE: Stradivarius? You'd be better off with a modern violin (Apr. 10 2014 15:32:01)

quote:

People buy Strads for their antiquity and rarity, not necessarily because
they're "Better".

Any sane person realizes that in art (beauty of tone) there is no "Better".

There is only one's opinion/perception. People hear what they want
to hear.
An instrument is worth what somebody will pay for it, period, end of story.


Wisely put, ToddK.

I quoted before a sound rule of marketing: when it comes to precious or luxury goods, people don't buy the goods but the admiration of others. And such satisfaction will alter, and positively so, their perception of the instrument, their way of playing it and even their confidence in performing.



Paul Magnussen -> RE: Stradivarius? You'd be better off with a modern violin (Apr. 10 2014 16:31:13)

quote:

when it comes to precious or luxury goods, people don't buy the goods but the admiration of others


An definite overgeneralisation: all luxury goods aren’t Veblen goods.

Rafael Nadal’s $525,000 Richard Mille watch may be (or would be, had he paid for it); I rather think Roger Federer’s private jet to take him to his matches is not.

Neither did I buy the classical guitar I have so that others could admire it: very few people see it, and of those that do even fewer could tell it from anything else.



Ruphus -> RE: Stradivarius? You'd be better off with a modern violin (Apr. 10 2014 17:16:54)

Hi Paul,

Me thinks what was meant to be the admiration that built up the image, but I could be wrong.

I remember appreciating one certain girl friend even more, after realizing how crazy the other guys were for her.

I have never cared about brand hype, yet can well imagine how the very exquisit being of a Stradivari could lift one´s ego as a player and then actually result into better performance.

Ruphus



sig -> RE: Stradivarius? You'd be better off with a modern violin (Apr. 10 2014 17:46:03)

I think it is pretty subjective and like Ricardo said, when you play a different instrument "you notice all the little details I like that are DIFFERENT than my normal instrument." Its not necessarily better but different. Where I live, we recently had a theft of a Strad. The concert master was walking from his car to the concert hall when two guys tazered him and ran off with the $6 mill value instrument. The cop's found it about 2 weeks later along with the knuckleheads that stole it. I was told by a friend who is familiar with this instrument that when the thieves stole the violin they pitched the case and with it, the two Bow's that are worth somewhere around $50k each! It amazes me at the level of weath some people have who can own an instrument of such value and probably not even be able to play it. I believe it was on loan to the concert master from the owner...



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Stradivarius? You'd be better off with a modern violin (Apr. 10 2014 18:09:40)

quote:

can well imagine how the very exquisit being of a Stradivari could lift one´s ego as a player and then actually result into better performance.


exactly.
And maybe the persons who played the strad would not care about a wonderfull Ruphus concert violin even though it was better.
Isn´t it what is called projection. Just like stupid me feeling more exquisite and elegant when I drove my Mercedes compared to when I drive my old Renault van[&:]



gj Michelob -> RE: Stradivarius? You'd be better off with a modern violin (Apr. 10 2014 18:13:25)

quote:

An definite overgeneralisation: all luxury goods aren’t Veblen goods.


You are not entirely wrong, Paul. In fact, this maxim is taken from the Fashion Industry, and not all luxury goods fall as squarely within its reach, as those in luxury fashion.

However, I propose that the point remains somehow valid; after all something is rare or exclusive when only a few can have it, or afford it, and in many ways most "labeled"products, including instruments such as a Hauser guitar or Stard Cello, can cast that magic spell on the desirous buyer.

Take it easy,
gj

PS.: Thank you, Ruphus, for your kind intercession.



Paul Magnussen -> RE: Stradivarius? You'd be better off with a modern violin (Apr. 10 2014 18:26:08)

quote:

It amazes me at the level of weath some people have who can own an instrument of such value and probably not even be able to play it.


You can say what you like about the old Soviet Union (and who doesn’t?).

But something I liked was that all the Strads and Amatis were owned by the State; if you were a top violinist, they gave you one to play, and when you you died it went back to the State — you couldn’t leave it to anybody. Nobody hoarding these things in cupboards and safes.



Pgh_flamenco -> RE: Stradivarius? You'd be better off with a modern violin (Apr. 10 2014 20:36:08)

quote:

Nobody hoarding these things in cupboards and safes.


Most of these instruments have been too expensive to be owned by musicians for a few decades. Many are making their way to trusts which are set up to buy and then loan them to individual musicians for life. After the musician retires they are returned to the trust and loaned to next qualified musician.

I learned recently that when my uncle (who was a violinist as I've mentioned before) was a teenager he won a national competition and was loaned a Stradivarius for a year. This was either the late 1930’s or early 1940’s. I can’t imagine a teenager being given such an expensive instrument these days. When my uncle was in the US military he toured with a band that included Ossy Renardy who owned several noteworthy violins—including Paganini’s Canon Joseph.

As for the topic of this thread musicians have to let their hands and ears decide which instrument is best. This is where the valuation process begins.



sig -> RE: Stradivarius? You'd be better off with a modern violin (Apr. 10 2014 20:38:33)

I had heard it was brought here to the states back in the early 80's from a soviet bloc country. Not sure which but supposedly it was in the family for a long, long time...



Estevan -> RE: Stradivarius? You'd be better off with a modern violin (Apr. 10 2014 20:42:59)

quote:

You can say what you like about the old Soviet Union (and who doesn’t?).

But something I liked was that all the Strads and Amatis were owned by the State; if you were a top violinist, they gave you one to play, and when you you died it went back to the State — you couldn’t leave it to anybody. Nobody hoarding these things in cupboards and safes.

Canada Council Musical Instrument Bank



Estevan -> RE: Stradivarius? You'd be better off with a modern violin (Apr. 10 2014 20:52:18)

quote:

Just like stupid me feeling more exquisite and elegant when I drove my Mercedes compared to when I drive my old Renault van

"When I drove a Jaguar, I noticed the other Jaguar drivers. Now that I'm wearing jeans insted of suits, I notice nearly everyone."

- John Cage



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Stradivarius? You'd be better off with a modern violin (Apr. 10 2014 21:59:35)

Several years ago there was an article by an economist in "Money" magazine. He tried to find out what determined the price of old and very expensive violins. He consulted a half dozen of the most prestigious stringed instrument dealers, and asked them what was important. They all agreed on a certain set of about a half dozen parameters, such as

1) Attribution: how securely could it be proven that the instrument came from a famous maker.

2) Condition: How good was the physical condition of the instrument

3) History: How good a story was provable--had it belonged to a famous family like the Medici, or to a famous performer of the past?

4)…I don't remember the rest.

All the dealers agreed, but something struck the writer. No one mentioned how the instrument sounded. He went back to the dealers and asked, "These are musical instruments, isn't the sound important?"

Several of the dealers simply said, "No. The sound is not important in determining the price."

The writer was puzzled. Finally one dealer took pity on him and explained, "If I put five instruments, all equal in the parameters mentioned, at the disposal of the five greatest violinists, they might pick five different instruments as the best. There is no agreement as to the sound of an instrument among the great players."

RNJ



Paul Magnussen -> RE: Stradivarius? You'd be better off with a modern violin (Apr. 10 2014 22:29:00)

It’s always amused that that when a painting is thought to be by Leonardo (or whomever), it’s worth x million dollars, but if it’s then shown to be a modern forgery it’s lucky if it’s it’s worth x hundred — even though the painting is the same.

if you want some entertaining reading, try Eric Hebborn’s Confessions of a Master Forger (aka Drawn to Trouble)

P.S. Unfortunately, his forgeries apparently pissed off too many people, and shortly after the publication of this he was found with his head bashed in [:'(]



Erik van Goch -> RE: Stradivarius? You'd be better off with a modern violin (Apr. 10 2014 22:47:24)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul Magnussen

quote:

when it comes to precious or luxury goods, people don't buy the goods but the admiration of others


An definite overgeneralisation: all luxury goods aren’t Veblen goods.

Rafael Nadal’s $525,000 Richard Mille watch may be (or would be, had he paid for it); I rather think Roger Federer’s private jet to take him to his matches is not.

Neither did I buy the classical guitar I have so that others could admire it: very few people see it, and of those that do even fewer could tell it from anything else.

Unfortunately we do indeed live in a world were sometimes a pair of nikes can literally mean the difference between life and death. On the other hand multi million dollar art objects frequently change hands at actions between anonymous buyers/sellers. As a collector of good taxidermy i rather spend 1000,- on a perfect sparrow then getting an average snowy owl for free, despite the fact the last will get multi million more likes.

When i try a new and inspiring instrument i might discover/enjoy phrases that seem to outclass my own instrument. But the precent owner of that instrument might have some similar experiences playing my guitar. Although some instruments are indeed a class on their own there are lot's of factors that can influence the way we experience quality. Both the instrument, the player, the listener and the setting can have better and lesser moments and small but significant differences in tuning can make a hell of a difference in the amount of overtones contributing to the sound quality. On top an instrument can sound magical to it's player but not so well to a person standing just in front of it and the very same instrument that does not impress at all at close range can totally open up when you take a title more distance and totally mesmerize a concert audience.



Leñador -> RE: Stradivarius? You'd be better off with a modern violin (Apr. 10 2014 22:57:05)

quote:

As a collector of good taxidermy


That's interesting to know about you Erik, I admire, but don't own any.
Check this show out - http://www.amctv.com/shows/immortalized



Erik van Goch -> RE: Stradivarius? You'd be better off with a modern violin (Apr. 10 2014 23:21:14)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul Magnussen

It’s always amused that that when a painting is thought to be by Leonardo (or whomever), it’s worth x million dollars, but if it’s then shown to be a modern forgery it’s lucky if it’s it’s worth x hundred — even though the painting is the same.


Likewise original paintings are sometimes exposed as being made by the masters students or being a combination of the masters hand with that of his students. Prices can drop and raise like a yoyo when the experts change their minds over a paintings status. 40 million dollar paintings can drop to 400.000 when close inspection expose it as being painted by a student and years later new insights can restore it's original master status and the same painting will raise to over 40 million again.



Erik van Goch -> RE: Stradivarius? You'd be better off with a modern violin (Apr. 10 2014 23:55:43)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lenador

quote:

As a collector of good taxidermy


That's interesting to know about you Erik, I admire, but don't own any.


Unfortunately one of the best taxidermists i know lives in the UK and does not sell to the netherlands. http://www.taxidermists.co.uk/

But i do own a couple of birds of the great dutch Taxidermist Jeroen Bennema like this african eagle owl.

https://www.facebook.com/TaxidermyStudioJBennema/photos/pb.538706246194057.-2207520000.1397172820./538708786193803/?type=3&theater

On top i own a hand full of world class skulls and skeletons.



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