Playing Flamenco With Finger Picks Part II - The Mizrab

Playing Flamenco With Finger Picks Part II - The Mizrab (Full Version)

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rojarosguitar -> Playing Flamenco With Finger Picks Part II - The Mizrab (Mar. 24 2014 17:26:27)
In the thread Playing Flamenco With Finger Pics I tried to hear whether anybody has some idea about finger picks as an alternative to nails. I just started to experiment with two things: 1. Butterflyes and 2. Mizrabs. 1. Butterflyes (google Butterfly guitar picks) work quite nicely for classical guitar; rasgueado doesn't work because they are only suitable for up strokes. I modified them in a way that also supports rasgueado, but the sound suffers. 2. Mizrabs: the Indian plectrum for playing Sitar. Naturally suitable for rasgueados because sitar is played in alternating up- and down strokes. Disadvantages: i) not easy to get hold of really fitting ones. ii) When too big, they move too much and yield to the side when doing rasgueado. When too small, they plainly hurt, because the wire is very hard and unyielding. iii) They require some adaptation in technique (well, I don't have much of a specific flamenco technique anyway, and rasgueados seem to come easier with them than with my ****ty nails). Especially on the bass strings if the strokes goes a bit along the strings there are these scratching noises of the wire against the winding. iiii) The sound of the treble strings is a bit to pointed and has not enough higher harmonics, but one can achieve quite a volume with them. So how did I solve problem i) : bought some from an Indian Instrument Shop and learnt from looking and experimenting with soft copper wire at them how to make them. Problem ii) make them well fitting. iii) Still experimenting and checking whether it's worth the work. iiii) made them from thinner wire than the actual Indian ones, which after all have a different purpose. Sounds better and is much easier to make. Still in the process of experimenting. Conclusion: I can play much much better with the mizrabs than without nails, so that's quite a good news. Also classical guitar works to a degree (for me) better than without nails. Whether I'll settle on them or leap to CA in the end - I'll se and keep you posted. If I'll make it to record something of my stupid playing I'll post it too, if only for demonstration reasons... Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Mark2 -> RE: Playing Flamenco With Finger Picks Part II - The Mizrab (Mar. 24 2014 18:16:10)
Wow. I have a sitar and the only thing more uncomfortable than the playing position are those miserable wire picks. they are appropriately named for sure. I can't imagine using five of those things..... BTW, I used super glue, and also had acrylic applied for a few decades and never had a nail issue. But in the last few years, my thumb nail got a virus and completely fell off. Now it's a bit better but still dis colored and deformed. Recently I was told to soak it in Epson salted water every day. the jury is still out as to it's effectiveness.

rojarosguitar -> RE: Playing Flamenco With Finger Picks Part II - The Mizrab (Mar. 24 2014 21:14:51)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mark2 Wow. I have a sitar and the only thing more uncomfortable than the playing position are those miserable wire picks. they are appropriately named for sure. I can't imagine using five of those things..... BTW, I used super glue, and also had acrylic applied for a few decades and never had a nail issue. But in the last few years, my thumb nail got a virus and completely fell off. Now it's a bit better but still dis colored and deformed. Recently I was told to soak it in Epson salted water every day. the jury is still out as to it's effectiveness. LOL yes they can be very uncomfortable, but only times three ... and I have learnt to make them to my own measurements with thinner wire and that makes them more comfortable and better sounding. Also I'm not claiming yet that this is THE SOLUTION to nail problems, but it could one of those varied solutions and maybe not the worst. I'll see with more experience. Wish you the best with healing your thumb...

Ricardo -> RE: Playing Flamenco With Finger Picks Part II - The Mizrab (Mar. 24 2014 21:42:26)
Hey Zeus Crease Toes

Pgh_flamenco -> RE: Playing Flamenco With Finger Picks Part II - The Mizrab (Mar. 25 2014 0:01:21)
Part II!!! As if the first thread wasn't enough!?! What's next, "Playing Flamenco with Finger Picks Part III"? Instead of trying to change things to suit your needs you could actually study the current--and historically accepted--conventions associated with playing flamenco.

rojarosguitar -> RE: Playing Flamenco With Finger Picks Part II - The Mizrab (Mar. 25 2014 4:59:03)
quote: ORIGINAL: Pgh_flamenco Part II!!! As if the first thread wasn't enough!?! What's next, "Playing Flamenco with Finger Picks Part III"? Instead of trying to change things to suit your needs you could actually study the current--and historically accepted--conventions associated with playing flamenco. Don't worry, there isn't going to be a PART III. I just separated it from my question just to discuss the special ideas connected to the use of mizrab. That set aside, with all respect, if everybody would follow your ideas, there would be no flamenco because everybody still would be sitting in front of their caves and banging stones on each another. I think there is nothing wrong exploring things, and nobody comes and forces you to do the same. I thought some other people may have the same problems and are also interested in the exploration of possible solutions. Out of the same problem, in the past some first guy thought maybe 'Oh, why not put Superglue on my nail to repair (or strengthen) it?' Also I'm not claiming this is really a solution until I play a while like that and find it to be one. Time being I at least can play while waiting for my nail growing... best

z6 -> RE: Playing Flamenco With Finger Picks Part II - The Mizrab (Mar. 25 2014 5:52:53)
Roja, you imply that you are 'exploring' a solution to your nail problem. But over in 'Fingerbobs I' you said that you had 'heard' that CA glue was damaging to nails. So, you have not explored the solution that a lot of guys here suggested. Seriously, there are reasons beyond our seeming rejection of this exciting new nail technology (or at least the application of Sitar technology) that you describe. Would it seem arrogant if I say that we only have to look at these things and contemplate wearing them to know it is a quite massive dead end? As for playing without nails, if you do it properly, for a long time, you develop calouses and the results are entirely unlike the results obtained when one first attempts to play without nails. I 'explored' playing without nails for a long time and it is a good solution... but nails simply it make it a lot easier. In your original thread you'll find there are reasons cited beyond our Philistinism for using glue. That is what I meant by this type of thread always having a lot of 'noise'. The CA solution is as good as it gets, for a number of reasons. What do you do about golpes? Does your guitar have a reinforced metal plate, or some other protection? Of course you must do whatever suits you but this Freddie Kruger solution is surely the very last thing one would try, when all else has failed. You also cite your perceived 'disadvantages' of thise wire things but what are the advantages? How would one play picado? wouldn't they move about on one's finger? How do you get them to stay stiff on the finger so that you can do all the things required in flamenco guitar? I'm off now to bang some rocks against my cave wall, file my nails and apply glue. Really, I think this is much more important than trying to justify a wild idea. Without dealing with nails in an appropriate way there will not be much flamenco guitar playing going on; it is crucial to the techniques. But if you can make those things work then good for you.

Mark2 -> RE: Playing Flamenco With Finger Picks Part II - The Mizrab (Mar. 25 2014 16:11:36)
Those sitar picks can be positioned on your finger so that they don't move, and with one on your index, you can do upstrokes as well as downstrokes. They are very uncomfortable to me, but I'm sure people get used to them. You could do single lines with one finger, just like with a pick. I don't think it's a solution for flamenco guitar playing, but who knows. It wouldn't surprise me if someone made it happen.

rojarosguitar -> RE: Playing Flamenco With Finger Picks Part II - The Mizrab (Mar. 25 2014 21:33:15)
To clarify: I'd love to play with nails. But at the moment I have no nails to play with, they are filed as short as possible and I'm treating them wih Onymyrrhe and some other stuff to make them grow stronger. So no CA of this world would make them better for playing right now because they are just too short. In this situation I'm quite glad that these mizrabs kind of work (certainly better than my nailless fingers). As I wrote I use three (i, m and a) and I made them myself suiting my fingers with thinner wire, so that they are also much more comfortable than your standard mizrab from the sitar shop around the corner. They are very light and actually almost possible to forget, though - as I said - I greatly prefer the tone of proper nails. And, I don't need an iron golpeador, no, I'm sure somebody with firm nails can damage his at least as easy as I can with the mizrabs. As soon as my nails are long enough, I will try to harden them somehow (still pondering how, plenty of advice here). No need to fear that I'm about to revolutionize Flamenco or convert it to a one finger tremolo music. Anyway thanks for sharing your ideas with me.

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