flamenco and the son/rumba clave rhythm.. coincidence?

flamenco and the son/rumba clave rhythm.. coincidence? (Full Version)

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vigrond -> flamenco and the son/rumba clave rhythm.. coincidence? (Mar. 15 2014 23:41:10)
the son / rumba clave rhythms root has been traced to africa they are usually either a 2/3 or a 3/2 8 beat rhythm, with 2 accents on one side and 3 on the other. this is very similar to flamenco rhythms, which have 2 on one side and 3 on the other. is this just a coincidence..? or did the moors pick the same rhythms up from africans and took it with them to spain, just as the african slaves took it with them to cuba? just a thought

guitarbuddha -> RE: flamenco and the son/rumba clave rhythm.. coincidence? (Mar. 16 2014 0:04:02)
Opening melody of the Beatles Michelle. Very slow 3 2 son clave with the third hit of the three side missing. Charlston rhythm Bo Diddly rhythm Johhny b Good Accents in the rhythm guitar part of Black Sabbaths paranoid. Virtually all pop music since the sixties is based on latin rhythms. Interesting rhythms from ethnic traditions are much harder to write so are more readily transmitted auraly. Even today pop songs are published with the rhythm of the melody simplified to the point of coarseness. We really don't know to what extent sung music from prerecorded times used asymettrical stress and syncopation because we cannot trust the precision of the transcriptions. I like to think there has always been a lot of swing around everywhere for a very long time. D.

El Kiko -> RE: flamenco and the son/rumba clave rhythm.. coincidence? (Mar. 16 2014 1:31:06)
well they are ..3/2 rhythms ...but it still would be written in 4/4... it just means you have the first bar with 3 notes in it and the second bar with 2..which changes things quite a bit ... although , depending on the tune .. which is the driving force, it could start on the 2nd bar and thus turn the whole thing around .. although still in 4/4 it would be more like 2/3 ..and then you would have you little 'turn around in the music as well ... I think its a fairly recent afro/cuban rhythm , in terms of the century ...and the bigger influence of the moors came from north africa (Al Andaluz ) but imported from the east as oppose to the south ... so due to its more recent appearance and location .. i would say .. probably not ...

Miguel de Maria -> RE: flamenco and the son/rumba clave rhythm.. coincidence? (Mar. 16 2014 3:10:40)
Hemiola's been around at least since the Renaissance. Even Bach got his hemiola on.

Ricardo -> RE: flamenco and the son/rumba clave rhythm.. coincidence? (Mar. 16 2014 13:17:12)
correct about rhythmic accents and syncopation being around a long time, and probably all rooted in Africa/Middle East. But the numbers 3/2 etc, that being FIVE accents, is coincidental and arbitrary. "Accents of what?" is the important question in terms of looking for connections between different musics. For sure you will find them. But for example, Rumba flamenco and Rumba/Son are totally different claves (accent patterns), as are Guajira Flamenca and Guajira de Cuba....the only "relationship" is the name itself.

guitarbuddha -> RE: flamenco and the son/rumba clave rhythm.. coincidence? (Mar. 16 2014 13:33:22)
32 or 23 refers to the order of the bars. One bar has three hits on the clave (wooden stick) the other has two. Melodies fit best with one or the other and in either inversion (32 or 23). You have to be very careful with this though as the rumba clave when played 23 has an accent anticipating the downbeat of the first bar so actually sounds like 32 till you learn to identify it properly ! For example The girl From Ipanema its perfectly with rumba clave in 32. Less well with the others. This guy breaks it down quite well for English speakers.

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