Flamenco Tree

Flamenco Tree (Full Version)

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gmburns -> Flamenco Tree (Mar. 12 2014 13:50:22)
A friend recently sent me these photos. I thought they were pretty helpful. Sorry about the quality - for whatever reason he broke up each map into a couple of photos so not the easiest to look at. Anyone have any good visual trees like this? I've googled, but curious what others use. Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco Tree (Mar. 12 2014 16:12:52)
In hindsight, I realize these trees are often grouped by compas. My mind now, after having studied cante many years, tends to group cantes more by the melodies and harmonic structures. Compas seems more "imposed" on the melody to me...unless of course your point of view of cante is coming from Baile. Still, it's interesting to see them grouped in some way. Ricardo

edguerin -> RE: Flamenco Tree (Mar. 12 2014 16:29:50)
There are a lot of "trees" out there; personally I find this graph (and the website it's from) more helpful Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco Tree (Mar. 12 2014 16:35:10)
wow that's confusing with all the squiggly lines. Romances points to siguiryas and tonas? makes no sense at all, melodically or compas wise. Next.

el carbonero -> RE: Flamenco Tree (Mar. 12 2014 16:42:28)
I'm agree with the first tree ,with the mairena and molina theory about tango , is gitano andaluz ,and i dont understand why some people prentend it's american palos.

gmburns -> RE: Flamenco Tree (Mar. 12 2014 16:55:33)
quote: ORIGINAL: edguerin There are a lot of "trees" out there; personally I find this graph (and the website it's from) more helpful Tough to read that flow chart, but the website was pretty good. Lot of stuff on there. Still, I think the tree you provided shows how complex flamenco really is.

gmburns -> RE: Flamenco Tree (Mar. 12 2014 16:57:49)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ricardo In hindsight, I realize these trees are often grouped by compas. My mind now, after having studied cante many years, tends to group cantes more by the melodies and harmonic structures. Compas seems more "imposed" on the melody to me...unless of course your point of view of cante is coming from Baile. Still, it's interesting to see them grouped in some way. Ricardo I guess one thing that I'm learning is categorizing will take years, and yeah, it depends on you and your needs / perspective. However, just to see it laid out, and to see where things originated and how the branched out (excuse the pun) is definitely interesting. There's a story in there somewhere.

mark indigo -> RE: Flamenco Tree (Mar. 12 2014 17:35:28)
quote: I guess one thing that I'm learning is categorizing will take years, and yeah, it depends on you and your needs / perspective. I'm wondering what are your needs/perspective? do you play? or dance? or sing? the relationship between knowledge, technique and feeling is both interesting and important. They should be in balance.

gmburns -> RE: Flamenco Tree (Mar. 12 2014 17:59:11)
quote: ORIGINAL: mark indigo quote: I guess one thing that I'm learning is categorizing will take years, and yeah, it depends on you and your needs / perspective. I'm wondering what are your needs/perspective? do you play? or dance? or sing? the relationship between knowledge, technique and feeling is both interesting and important. They should be in balance. I do none, though the owner of one of the schools is begging me to start dancing because of a lack of available male dancers. I'm a painter, so I'm trying to look at flamenco through a cultural lens. The music and dance is much less important to me than the lives of flamencos.

El Kiko -> RE: Flamenco Tree (Mar. 12 2014 18:07:01)
why do you need a tree? ...how will it help you ?... what will be missing from my world if I do not have a tree.... Ok I like this tree ...it will help me play if i sit underneath it ..and discover gravity ... Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

mark indigo -> RE: Flamenco Tree (Mar. 12 2014 18:10:24)
. quote: I do none, though the owner of one of the schools is begging me to start dancing because of a lack of available male dancers. I'm a painter, so I'm trying to look at flamenco through a cultural lens. The music and dance is much less important to me than the lives of flamencos. ok, so I'm thinking that as a listener or spectator you (or me, or we, or anyone else) probably need to know something about flamenco to really appreciate it... but only up to a point. Beyond that it becomes an academic exercise. You also need to exercise the "technique" of listening and watching, and to immerse yourself in the feeling. Learning to dance might give you some insights into cultural questions![:)] also it might make categorization simpler and easier

runner -> RE: Flamenco Tree (Mar. 12 2014 22:33:54)
I don't think there is ever a danger of learning too much about a subject; about it becoming an academic exercise (and is that bad?). I've found that just about every subject, art form, science, philosophy, "recreational activity", whatever, is helped in some way (often in a surprising way) to be more fully understood and more fully enjoyed, if one finds out a whole lot about it. I'm pretty sure our friend Sr. Burns will get into flamenco just about as deeply as he chooses to. I neither play, nor dance, nor sing. But I've loved flamenco (in my own way) for about 50 years now.

gmburns -> RE: Flamenco Tree (Mar. 12 2014 23:27:10)
quote: ORIGINAL: runner I don't think there is ever a danger of learning too much about a subject; about it becoming an academic exercise (and is that bad?). I've found that just about every subject, art form, science, philosophy, "recreational activity", whatever, is helped in some way (often in a surprising way) to be more fully understand and more fully enjoyed, if one finds out a whole lot about it. I'm pretty sure our friend Sr. Burns will get into flamenco just about as deeply as he chooses to. I neither play, nor dance, nor sing. But I've loved flamenco (in my own way) for about 50 years now. This ^^. No need for a tree, but it is interesting. It does help to explain some things that I'm reading, or at least give a clearer picture.

gmburns -> RE: Flamenco Tree (Mar. 12 2014 23:37:37)
quote: ORIGINAL: El Kiko why do you need a tree? I don't. quote: how will it help you ? I'm trying to learn something. Sometimes visual tools help people, especially painters like myself. Being able to see some organization, whether it's a perfect organization or not is irrelevant, gives a picture of what came from Cadiz and how things derived from there, and from Jerez, and from Malaga, and from the folk songs in the north, etc. It helps a story move when one understands how points B and C relate when one goes from point A to point D. quote: what will be missing from my world if I do not have a tree I have no clue. Oxygen maybe? I guess it depends if the other plants pick up the slack. Do you breathe a lot? Could be a problem. You might want to see a doctor. [8\|]

edguerin -> RE: Flamenco Tree (Mar. 13 2014 8:02:45)
quote: that's confusing with all the squiggly lines. Sorry to confuse you [8D] AFAIK romances (=corridos) can be considered to be the origin of tonás .... at least that's what various sources state

mark indigo -> RE: Flamenco Tree (Mar. 13 2014 9:59:37)
quote: I don't think there is ever a danger of learning too much about a subject; about it becoming an academic exercise (and is that bad?). I've found that just about every subject, art form, science, philosophy, "recreational activity", whatever, is helped in some way (often in a surprising way) to be more fully understand and more fully enjoyed, if one finds out a whole lot about it. I agree with what you say here in general, but we are talking specifically about flamenco, and I was talking about the balance between intellectual knowledge and practical experience (I was actually referring to what Antonio Mairena about good flamenco requiring three things: knowledge, technique and feeling). I think the knowledge acquired needs some sort of experience to make it meaningful. I've read quite a lot about the Moorish history of Spain, which is very interesting, and gives some cultural and historical background, but doesn't actually help that much in accompanying dance classes. I've read a lot about various schemes of classification and categorization of cantes, but while a certain amount of that helped me in the beginning to start to distinguish different palos, there comes a point where ear is more important for accompanying cante. I see it all the time with dance students buying cd's of flamenco indian fusion exploring the the roots of the Gypsies' migrations, or trying to read academic treatises on counting in order to "understand" compás, but they don't know where the letra starts....[&:]

gmburns -> RE: Flamenco Tree (Mar. 13 2014 12:23:17)
quote: ORIGINAL: mark indigo quote: I don't think there is ever a danger of learning too much about a subject; about it becoming an academic exercise (and is that bad?). I've found that just about every subject, art form, science, philosophy, "recreational activity", whatever, is helped in some way (often in a surprising way) to be more fully understand and more fully enjoyed, if one finds out a whole lot about it. I agree with what you say here in general, but we are talking specifically about flamenco, and I was talking about the balance between intellectual knowledge and practical experience (I was actually referring to what Antonio Mairena about good flamenco requiring three things: knowledge, technique and feeling). I think the knowledge acquired needs some sort of experience to make it meaningful. I've read quite a lot about the Moorish history of Spain, which is very interesting, and gives some cultural and historical background, but doesn't actually help that much in accompanying dance classes. I've read a lot about various schemes of classification and categorization of cantes, but while a certain amount of that helped me in the beginning to start to distinguish different palos, there comes a point where ear is more important for accompanying cante. I see it all the time with dance students buying cd's of flamenco indian fusion exploring the the roots of the Gypsies' migrations, or trying to read academic treatises on counting in order to "understand" compás, but they don't know where the letra starts....[&:] I agree with what you're saying. I'm not interested in studying to learn how to play or dance. I may dance later, but I'm not interested in studying for that purpose. I'm much more interested in the culture side of things.

gmburns -> RE: Flamenco Tree (Mar. 13 2014 12:24:47)
Your GIF avatar is freaking me out man. I see it move out of the corner of my eye and when I look it doesn't move. I look away and...[:(]

mark indigo -> RE: Flamenco Tree (Mar. 13 2014 13:28:12)
quote: I'm much more interested in the culture side of things. yes I understand that, I think the cultural aspect is very important. It's easy to assume that all a student has to do is play the notes or dance the steps, but without cultural context so much of the meaning is lost, and so often the result looks or sounds either mechanical or sloppy. In some ways this is the hardest thing to learn, especially outside of Spain... I'm lucky to have a dancer/teacher who I play for who is a fountain of this kind of experiential cultural knowledge. She has amazing afición for cante and guitarra, and of course baile, and although she can barely count compás or categorise cantes, she can sing the letras and falsetas that she wants to hear! She has really opened my eyes and ears to how much more I have to learn, but not really in an academic or intellectual way. I wonder how you balance the intellectual learning with experience?

guitarbuddha -> RE: Flamenco Tree (Mar. 13 2014 14:17:22)
quote: ORIGINAL: mark indigo she can sing the letras and falsetas that she wants to hear! I wonder how you balance the intellectual learning with experience? That first line (above) is the one step which cannot be missed out. Yet it is the one that most guitarists resist or ridicule in a pathetic attempt to be hip. The answer to the second part, for me, is that I sing what I want to be able to play or understand. This gives me a visceral experience and an emotional framework on which to build everything else. And it can be even simpler with simple music. Like if someone wants to sight read then they have to learn to count as they play. And to count musically. And how does one count musically ? Well the same way one sings musically, by listening and getting upset when it sounds like sh1t then letting your ears fix it. There is nothing more depressing or unhelpful in the world of music than asking someone how something is supposed to go and meeting a blank stare or a buttoned lip. But not fashionable to talk about this, back to false nails and false oppositions. D.

edguerin -> RE: Flamenco Tree (Mar. 13 2014 14:49:45)
quote: Your GIF avatar is freaking me out man Don't worry, I'm a psychiatrist ! [;)]

gmburns -> RE: Flamenco Tree (Mar. 13 2014 15:34:03)
quote: ORIGINAL: mark indigo quote: I'm much more interested in the culture side of things. yes I understand that, I think the cultural aspect is very important. It's easy to assume that all a student has to do is play the notes or dance the steps, but without cultural context so much of the meaning is lost, and so often the result looks or sounds either mechanical or sloppy. In some ways this is the hardest thing to learn, especially outside of Spain... I'm lucky to have a dancer/teacher who I play for who is a fountain of this kind of experiential cultural knowledge. She has amazing afición for cante and guitarra, and of course baile, and although she can barely count compás or categorise cantes, she can sing the letras and falsetas that she wants to hear! She has really opened my eyes and ears to how much more I have to learn, but not really in an academic or intellectual way. I wonder how you balance the intellectual learning with experience? I think they go hand-in-hand to be honest. One needs to study and participate in a meaningful way on both sides. As you said, one can learn the notes but it would sound mechanical. But it's the same as if someone simply landed in Cadiz and tried to play based on his or her surroundings. I'm sure something would come out of it, but there would be no structure. Even a painting that has a structure-less appearance to it is structured simply because the artist probably intended to create in this methodical manner. If not, then it's simply luck, which certainly plays a legitimate part, too. Right now, what I'm trying to do is get a sense of why alegrias, for example, developed the way it did next to bulerias. Who made these differences? Why? What was their position / disposition in life when they began to prefer tientos. Did they do because they wanted to sing something different, or was there an environmental change? Can that environment be painted in such a way as to show where this person came from? I can't see how I can answer these questions without trying to reach both ends of the stick.

gmburns -> RE: Flamenco Tree (Mar. 13 2014 15:36:21)
quote: ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha quote: ORIGINAL: mark indigo she can sing the letras and falsetas that she wants to hear! I wonder how you balance the intellectual learning with experience? That first line (above) is the one step which cannot be missed out. Yet it is the one that most guitarists resist or ridicule in a pathetic attempt to be hip. The answer to the second part, for me, is that I sing what I want to be able to play or understand. This gives me a visceral experience and an emotional framework on which to build everything else. This is how I paint. All of my best paintings came from this emotional attachment to the painting and / or process. I think this is true for most artists.

gmburns -> RE: Flamenco Tree (Mar. 13 2014 15:37:31)
quote: ORIGINAL: edguerin quote: Your GIF avatar is freaking me out man Don't worry, I'm a psychiatrist ! [;)] yeah, but I'm too poor to get help. Maybe you can take credit for my insanity later on in life though...if I become famous.

Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco Tree (Mar. 13 2014 16:35:03)
quote: ORIGINAL: edguerin quote: that's confusing with all the squiggly lines. Sorry to confuse you [8D] AFAIK romances (=corridos) can be considered to be the origin of tonás .... at least that's what various sources state Nah. At least not the ones I am familiar with. I have played for them and heard them in various forms and I would say they are precursor to SOLEA/Buleria type melody and harmony. Typically we accompany with a Solea Por buleria compas anyway. Even the ones sung with no guitar sound more like Solea or buleria.

Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco Tree (Mar. 13 2014 16:42:15)
quote: I agree with what you're saying. I'm not interested in studying to learn how to play or dance. I may dance later, but I'm not interested in studying for that purpose. I'm much more interested in the culture side of things. Unfortunately, they are tied together. You are not interested, therefore all you can do is skim the surface of the culture.

runner -> RE: Flamenco Tree (Mar. 13 2014 22:27:18)
quote: You are not interested, therefore all you can do is skim the surface of the culture. Who is the arbiter of what constitutes being an "authentic" aficionado? I recognize only myself, and I think each of us feels the same way.

guitarbuddha -> RE: Flamenco Tree (Mar. 13 2014 22:34:38)
quote: ORIGINAL: runner quote: You are not interested, therefore all you can do is skim the surface of the culture. Who is the arbiter of what constitutes being an "authentic" aficionado? I recognize only myself, and I think each of us feels the same way. I know every inch of my paddling pool and have nothing but pity for pilots. D.

Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco Tree (Mar. 14 2014 4:47:04)
quote: ORIGINAL: runner quote: You are not interested, therefore all you can do is skim the surface of the culture. Who is the arbiter of what constitutes being an "authentic" aficionado? I recognize only myself, and I think each of us feels the same way. Let's put it this way. Not every aficionado is a "flamenco". But pretty much every "flamenco" IS an aficionado. [;)]

guitarbuddha -> RE: Flamenco Tree (Mar. 14 2014 9:24:21)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ricardo Let's put it this way. Not every aficionado is a "flamenco". But pretty much every "flamenco" IS an aficionado. [;)] True enough. But not every artist is a musician and not every musician is an artist. I make a mean curry but leave the cakes to my girlfriend. D.

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