RE: black diamond saddles (Full Version)

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petermc61 -> RE: black diamond saddles (Mar. 28 2014 23:26:02)

guitarbuddha

I gave you an opportunity to argue against my general proposition on the basis of logic. Instead you gave a few examples and some silly comments to make a claim that disproves my proposition. I am afraid you have not provided any rebuttal to my original proposition that shows it is illogical. Your examples and my proposition can happily sit side by side from a logical perspective but, frankly, I have too much to do to waste my time trying to educate you on this matter. Education requires an openness to ideas and I see scarcely a hint of that in your commentary to date.

I might also add that I never claimed that there were undergraduate or post-graduate courses called 'Science'. You have misrepresented my view so that you can attempt to shoot down a position I never made. My comment was that science was studied all over the world. It is true that as you progress through school and university studies it is normal to specialise in a branch of science. Whatever the branch of study, it is still science. You might be interested to know the University of Sydney to this day offers a Bachelor of Science, as does MIT and Harvard even offers a Master of Science.

I think it might be time to check out of this discussion. My time here, at least in this debate with yourself, is going nowhere.

I hope some of the luthiers on this site try a saddle and report back. Maybe the discussion with go somewhere useful.

Regards
Peter



guitarbuddha -> RE: black diamond saddles (Mar. 28 2014 23:30:02)

Well there is one born every minute so I am sure your time hasn't been wasted.

And to be honest I've had a few laughs.

Especially that last bit about BA's and MSc's, as if they were ever offered without reference to a core subject. Like say Theoretical Physics or Mechanical Engineering.

Marketing is sometimes offered as a BSc. Although smoke and mirrors sleight of hand and the reliance on the credulity of onlookers is not something which I associate with science.

D.



riffmeister -> RE: black diamond saddles (Mar. 29 2014 1:03:12)

Hello, I'm new here but some may know me as I have posted for many years as 'riffmeister' on other forums.

I tried the Black Diamond saddle with proprietary base from Jim Guthrie on one of my guitars. I sent Jim the bone saddle and he fashioned a similar size/shape BD saddle. I measured the two saddles with my micrometer and I had to sand down the BD saddle by a very small amount to get the height and thickness within 0.03 mm of the bone saddle. I don't have access to an accurate balance, but the BD feels lighter in weight. Jim said he weighed the two saddles and the BD saddle is about half the weight of the bone saddle. I put the bone saddle back on the guitar and let everything equilibrate for about 24 h. Then I played the guitar for about 45 min to get my ears accustomed to the sound and I made a recording. I then loosened the strings and replaced the bone saddle with the BD saddle. When the guitar was back up to pitch, my ears noticed a difference. To me, it was an unambiguous difference. I made another recording.

Bone: http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=12719620
BD: http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=12719619

For the time being, I will be using the BD saddle on this guitar. My subjective interpretation is that it gives the guitar a somewhat 'larger' or 'more full' sound with a bit more emphasis in the upper partials, and I believe the guitar is somewhat more responsive in the right hand. I am also tempted to try a BD saddle with a different base material.



guitarbuddha -> RE: black diamond saddles (Mar. 29 2014 11:02:25)

What a stunning coincidence.

You were reading in the background disintersetedly and then all of a sudden it occurred to you to sign up and post this 'evidence'.

And just as the first stalking horse retired !!!!

Well, I am convinced !!!!!!!


D.



riffmeister -> RE: black diamond saddles (Mar. 29 2014 11:56:12)

Hi D.

You can read here

http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=81488

to find out about what led me to join up here and post my results.

I knew you would enjoy listening to my recordings.



guitarbuddha -> RE: black diamond saddles (Mar. 29 2014 12:06:14)




riffmeister -> RE: black diamond saddles (Mar. 29 2014 13:10:56)

D.

If I were making money off this then yes, it would be spam. But I'm not.

The concept that the sound of a guitar could change with different materials used in the saddle should not be difficult to understand. "Better" is subjective.

Consider my post as another data point. Or just plain old entertainment for this place.

Here's one of my favorite Monty Python skits, it seems especially appropriate in this thread! :)



.



guitarbuddha -> RE: black diamond saddles (Mar. 29 2014 14:27:19)

Well we disagree on the nature of Spam. And disinformation in general. 15 pages of circular argument stikes me as Spam.

I feel glad that my position in the argument has thus far cost no money.

Those who want to may pay, a nice round $99 per laugh.

(And by the way thanks for the Sketch, more to the point than your predecessors' posts and less depressing and banal)

D.



Andy Culpepper -> RE: black diamond saddles (Mar. 29 2014 14:45:39)

quote:

Hello, I'm new here but some may know me as I have posted for many years as 'riffmeister' on other forums.

I tried the Black Diamond saddle with proprietary base from Jim Guthrie on one of my guitars. I sent Jim the bone saddle and he fashioned a similar size/shape BD saddle. I measured the two saddles with my micrometer and I had to sand down the BD saddle by a very small amount to get the height and thickness within 0.03 mm of the bone saddle. I don't have access to an accurate balance, but the BD feels lighter in weight. Jim said he weighed the two saddles and the BD saddle is about half the weight of the bone saddle. I put the bone saddle back on the guitar and let everything equilibrate for about 24 h. Then I played the guitar for about 45 min to get my ears accustomed to the sound and I made a recording. I then loosened the strings and replaced the bone saddle with the BD saddle. When the guitar was back up to pitch, my ears noticed a difference. To me, it was an unambiguous difference. I made another recording.

Bone: http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=12719620
BD: http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=12719619

For the time being, I will be using the BD saddle on this guitar. My subjective interpretation is that it gives the guitar a somewhat 'larger' or 'more full' sound with a bit more emphasis in the upper partials, and I believe the guitar is somewhat more responsive in the right hand. I am also tempted to try a BD saddle with a different base material.



Welcome to the Foro.
I do hear a pretty distinct difference in the sound of those two recordings.
And for the record, I personally don't consider it improbable that using a different saddle material could change the tone of a guitar. In fact, almost everything you change about a guitar will have some impact on the sound, but not always perceptibly.

From those 2 recordings, I much prefer the sound of the bone saddle.
If my ears are working properly, the BD saddle offers quite a bit more sustain. IMO too much (I don't know, is that possible for classical players?). It actually sounds unnatural to my ears.
To my ears the BD saddle also lends a more nasal quality to the sound.

After hearing this I'm convinced that I don't want to try these saddles on my guitars.

Thanks for taking the time to do that. Nice playing and nice selection for this test.



riffmeister -> RE: black diamond saddles (Mar. 29 2014 15:07:46)

D., "15 pages of circular argument stikes me as Spam". I tried a saddle that others said changed the sound of the guitar, and to my ears, it did. Where's the circular argument? Which reminds me of a quote I've always found amusing: "Circular argument is best because it is circular." :)

Andy, I think the BD saddle with the 'proprietary base' improves several sound qualities of the guitar I tried it on. But the increase in the upper partials brings out some unwanted nail noise. Jim Guthrie and Peter tell me that using the BD inserts with a different base material (made of wood) diminishes that kind of "hi-fi" sound while retaining other characteristics. I am tempted to try what they suggest. All in all, it's been a fun experiment for me.

P.S. Oops, I must have hit the wrong reply button, I meant this to be a general reply, not a reply to Peter. Noob mistake!



Erik van Goch -> RE: black diamond saddles (Mar. 29 2014 15:47:32)

quote:

ORIGINAL: riffmeister

Oops, I must have hit the wrong reply button, I meant this to be a general reply, not a reply to Peter. Noob mistake!


Don't worry, you actually hit the correct button :-)

General replies always mention the poster on top of the running page (in this case peter). On page 1 that seems logical (you basically address the original poster of the question/item) but when seemingly "random" names pop up it is becomes a bit confusing (until you notice the link with the person on top of the running page).



riffmeister -> RE: black diamond saddles (Mar. 29 2014 17:27:39)

Hi Erik, got it, thanks!



Richard Jernigan -> RE: black diamond saddles (Mar. 29 2014 20:12:17)

Hi, Riff. Nice to see you here.

The following is not addressed personally to Riff, who from prior knowledge has my respect, but to the general population of this thread:

In my experience, successful luthiers are highly intelligent, highly motivated and extremely self-reliant. No matter what their training, successful guitar building seems to be largely the result of a self-directed learning process.

Such luthiers work constantly to achieve their objectives in sound and playability. Nobody makes a fortune as a self employed luthier, but even most of those who are relatively successful financially are constantly striving to improve.

It seems reasonable to suspect that for most successful luthiers, their instruments are to a large extent optimized for the materials they have experience with. Suggesting that a change in saddle material, described by its makers as radical, is bound to improve the sound of a guitar seems a bit far fetched. Change it? More likely--but still subject to verification by experiment.

Could a radical change in saddle material, coupled with a few guitars' worth of experimentation, get a luthier further along in his quest? Perhaps. Perhaps not.

Would arrogant and insulting putdowns help in introducing a new product? Not a chance.

Would arrogant and insulting putdowns by non-luthiers who have never experienced the new product contribute to advancement of the art? Not a chance.

RNJ



estebanana -> RE: black diamond saddles (Mar. 29 2014 20:31:16)

quote:

rom those 2 recordings, I much prefer the sound of the bone saddle.
If my ears are working properly, the BD saddle offers quite a bit more sustain. IMO too much (I don't know, is that possible for classical players?). It actually sounds unnatural to my ears.
To my ears the BD saddle also lends a more nasal quality to the sound.

After hearing this I'm convinced that I don't want to try these saddles on my guitars.

Thanks for taking the time to do that. Nice playing and nice selection for this test.


I concur.



guitarbuddha -> RE: black diamond saddles (Mar. 29 2014 22:05:39)

Musical criticism may or may not be an art.

I wrote this phrase

'I dislike the way segovia makes no attempt to play legato in the chaconne where it would be difficult. He tries to sell this by making the whole opening choppy. Definately the cart leading the horse.'

Richard Introduced himself to me thus.

'The 37,543rd regurgitation of anti-Segovia bile. This is about as silly as Alberto Lopez Poveda's hagiography masquerading as biography.'

I myself am not engaged in a serialised autohagiography. But tastes differ.

D.



estebanana -> RE: black diamond saddles (Mar. 29 2014 22:47:02)

quote:

I myself am not engaged in a serialised autohagiography. But tastes differ.


Hagiography is the study and stories of the lives of saints-

Senator, you're no Jack Saint.
-------------------------------------------

If I were to write an hagiography today it would be of my graduate school teacher Anna Valentina Murch who passed away March 26th 2014 - Deeply saddened by this as I heard about her passing last night.

She graduated from the Royal College of Art London in the early 1970's - taught there after graduation and then came to the US where she eventually became a faculty member of Mills College where she was the main engaging instructor in the 3D design concepts program.

She was a devoted teacher who cared about her students and made a super human effort to connect with all of them no matter how difficult they were. And I was one of the difficult ones. Despite my lack of talent at being a good student she connected with me and showed me compassion tempered with taking no crap.

She pulled the emotional weight of that program, provided a level headed base for the students and challenged them to do better work all at the same time. She was a remarkable person.

Think back on your best teachers today and forget about tweaking your sound this way or that way. Flamenco comes from your guts and so does your sound.

Take a bad guitar and play your best for a teacher you admired.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: black diamond saddles (Mar. 30 2014 18:25:13)

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha

Musical criticism may or may not be an art.

I wrote this phrase

'I dislike the way segovia makes no attempt to play legato in the chaconne where it would be difficult. He tries to sell this by making the whole opening choppy. Definately the cart leading the horse.'

Richard Introduced himself to me thus.

'The 37,543rd regurgitation of anti-Segovia bile. This is about as silly as Alberto Lopez Poveda's hagiography masquerading as biography.'

I myself am not engaged in a serialised autohagiography. But tastes differ.

D.


I hesitated to reply, lest I throw fuel on the fire, but I post everywhere under my own name, so I thought I should correct a mistaken impression that might affect an errant Googler.

The above is from the thread "Segovia and Flamenco" on the Off Topic forum, the first post on January 17, 2013.

Rather than introducing myself to guitarbuddha, to whose post I took no exception, my reply was clearly labeled as a response to the originator of the thread, who had called Segovia "a jerk."

My post came just after guitarbuddha's, which led to confusion. He appeared to reply to my post in polite tones.

As the thread went on there was illuminating comment about Segovia's playing, audible in recordings, and his technique, visible in videos. There was also a good deal more Segovia bashing, and other ill-natured stuff.

I chimed in again, praising the comments on objective observations, and deploring the attacks on Segovia. I didn't defend him, I just said that bashing someone who had provoked such widely varying impressions among people who knew him well was useless negativity from someone who had never met the man.

The thread went on to shocking length, lasting until the end of March. Thankfully it deviated from talk of Segovia about half way through, and went on with a lot of stuff about 12-tone music, John Cage, modern painting, and a lot of witty comment.

Of course, guitarbuddha will have quite a different take, to which I suppose he is entitled.

He is not entitled to twist my words.

RNJ



Michael Jay -> RE: black diamond saddles (Mar. 30 2014 22:54:04)

I agree....

Playing the clips in my studio through Focal Solo6 BE monitors the difference becomes very apparent. The bone saddle is warmer, fuller, sweeter and does not have the harsh sound of the BD saddle.

Thanks for the clips.



estebanana -> RE: black diamond saddles (Mar. 31 2014 6:05:10)

Am I now vindicated for not wanting to shell out $100.00 to learn something I already knew? Sound is subjective. [:D][:D]



jmdlister -> RE: black diamond saddles (Mar. 31 2014 9:33:43)

It's been quite a while since I posted on this forum (I'm still quite a novice when it comes to building flamenco guitars), but I've been looking at this thread because I'm interested in the Black Diamond saddle material...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

In my experience, successful luthiers are highly intelligent, highly motivated and extremely self-reliant. No matter what their training, successful guitar building seems to be largely the result of a self-directed learning process.

Such luthiers work constantly to achieve their objectives in sound and playability. Nobody makes a fortune as a self employed luthier, but even most of those who are relatively successful financially are constantly striving to improve.

It seems reasonable to suspect that for most successful luthiers, their instruments are to a large extent optimized for the materials they have experience with. Suggesting that a change in saddle material, described by its makers as radical, is bound to improve the sound of a guitar seems a bit far fetched. Change it? More likely--but still subject to verification by experiment.

Could a radical change in saddle material, coupled with a few guitars' worth of experimentation, get a luthier further along in his quest? Perhaps. Perhaps not.

RNJ

I can't fault any of that, Richard. I've yet to meet a luthier who thought all his/her guitars were "perfect", so most of us are interested in any new ideas or materials that might help us further along the path.

Of course, there are a great many "new" ideas and materials proposed by luthiers, strings manufacturers, tonewood suppliers, etc. which turn out not to be new at all. In this case, however, we do have a saddle material that appears to be new to the nylon string community, and I'm therefore willing to give it a try.

If I try the Black Diamond saddle, and can hear a difference, then I've got another variable to play with. Even if the change is not an obvious improvement, it might be possible to change other aspects of construction to achieve the sound I want, but keeping the (claimed) increase in volume and/or sustain (increased sustain of course being of more interest to classical players than flamenco). There's also the possibility of changing the insert size for each string, which I'm hoping might allow some scope for improving 3rd string response.

I'll try to measure any differences I do hear, as I like to have some sort of backup to convince myself it isn't all in my head.

In the end, I might decide these saddles are not for me, but there's really only one way to find out, isn't there?

James



Anders Eliasson -> RE: black diamond saddles (Mar. 31 2014 10:29:32)

Thats a good input James and I totally agree.

Another thing that I personally find to be possitive is that you can buy a saddle to a specific dimension. This means that I, the builder dont have to worry about this saddle material. I can just go along and build with bone and if a client of mine want to test the material, he/she can order a saddle that fits.
For me, based in Spain, the price would be around 100$ + 20$ shipping + 30% tax and management of the whole = 156,-$
A bit on the expensive side.



riffmeister -> RE: black diamond saddles (Mar. 31 2014 12:09:06)

Nice to see an open-minded response in this discussion! :)

I am keeping the BD saddle on the guitar for now, in general I like the added response and 'liveliness' it adds compared to the bone saddle. A bit of excess nail noise is the only downside for me. I will be trying a new BD saddle soon, one with a wooden base instead of the 'proprietary' base material (which is in the saddle I used for the first test). I will make some recordings and add my own subjective thoughts.



estebanana -> RE: black diamond saddles (Mar. 31 2014 13:15:03)

I took lessons from a guitarist in Spain about 15 years ago. I showed him the strings I had that had a G string that was designed to blend in with the over wound basses so that the transition between the D and G would be sound more the same.

He said: Well why would you want to do that? The G string is the most interesting funkiest string on the guitar and you want level it out with the dullest string which is the D? Why?

The tone of insinuation and scape goating that you are correct because you want to try a new product is not enough to make you right. Those who see no reason to change are not wrong and don't have closed minds. All the great recordings in flamenco history are done with bone saddles.

Ever try using a plexiglass saddle, a carbon fiber saddle cut from sheet stock or a brass saddle or an aluminum saddle? How about test those materials against this diamond saddle and a bone saddle and see what happens? Try a wood saddle, you'll get a whole other range of sustain and color that you had not heard before. The materials comparison selection is too limited for you to think you are ahead of the curve because you choose one material to contrast with bone.


Try hard plexiglass, I bet you'll find it not unlike the carbon saddle. Do a blind test with several different materials as saddles and see if you can pick out bone or carbon. See which one sounds good to ten different people.

The point is, it's still subjective so don't act superior and insinuate others are not open minded because you try one new material.

Every frickin' flamenco cut you _ever_ grooved to was recorded with a bone saddle. Get off your high horses.



Ricardo -> RE: black diamond saddles (Mar. 31 2014 14:39:19)

I would love to try a solid gold saddle. (I had the idea from the Godin Maclish pick ups on the nylon string guitars, which sound just fine considering what the overall design is).



Arash -> RE: black diamond saddles (Mar. 31 2014 15:15:02)

gold, diamond, platin ...... you guys are boring.
I would like to have a saddle made from human bone!



Sr. Martins -> [Deleted] (Mar. 31 2014 15:17:40)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Apr. 1 2014 8:21:18
Reason for deletion: Inappropriate



Arash -> [Deleted] (Mar. 31 2014 15:20:29)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Apr. 1 2014 8:21:29
Reason for deletion: Inappropriate



RobJe -> RE: black diamond saddles (Mar. 31 2014 15:35:31)

My wife used to work at Royal Holloway, University of London. It was founded by Thomas Holloway who made a fortune selling patent medicines and pills that he claimed cured just about everything. He was a polite man who never called anybody “stupid”. If you want to see how successful his business model was look at the building he endowed.
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ulet.org.uk%2Fresources%253Ftype%253Dresource%2526name%253Dfounders2.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ulet.org.uk%2F&h=453&w=709&tbnid=gRhU2Tnqna1whM%3A&zoom=1&docid=5-IKwHPIyDhX0M&ei=Foo5U8a-B6f80QWelIDwBg&tbm=isch&ved=0CH8QhBwwCg&iact=rc&dur=5629&page=1&start=0&ndsp=14

So black diamond improves the sound of steel string, classical and flamenco guitars – and violins? Presumably, players of these different instruments are not all looking for the same sound but it is suggested that whatever they are looking for it could be better with black diamond. I look forward to this with an open mind.



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



riffmeister -> RE: black diamond saddles (Mar. 31 2014 16:52:50)

Human bone would be cool. Closest I've heard of was a guy who used several of his teeth when they were knocked out by a horse kick. Pictures here:

http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=82490&p=892016#p892016

He should have been more careful getting off his high horse! :)



Morante -> RE: black diamond saddles (Mar. 31 2014 17:12:05)

quote:

I will be trying a new BD saddle soon, one with a wooden base instead of the 'proprietary' base material[
/quote]

Isn´t the bridge already made from Wood???[:D]



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