RE: Conversation starter: "Speed exercises" (Full Version)

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aeolus -> RE: Conversation starter: "Speed exercises" (Jan. 26 2014 22:50:08)

For some here the word classical is the equivalent of a muleta.



mark indigo -> RE: Conversation starter: "Speed exercises" (Jan. 26 2014 22:59:21)

quote:

I hope this satisfies you and we can get back to the point of the thread.


the point of the thread being....
that someone on a classical guitar forum says "speed exercises"
(whatever he means by that)
don't help with learning or playing classical repertoire.
Seems way off topic to me....



mark indigo -> RE: Conversation starter: "Speed exercises" (Jan. 26 2014 23:01:19)

quote:

For some here the word classical is the equivalent of a muleta.


[8|][8|][8|]

if you want to post classical guitar video's, why not post them on a classical guitar forum, or create a thread devoted to classical guitar in the off-topic section of this forum....



aeolus -> RE: Conversation starter: "Speed exercises" (Jan. 26 2014 23:29:01)

quote:

if you want to post classical guitar video's, why not post them on a classical guitar forum, or create a thread devoted to classical guitar in the off-topic section of this forum....


There are many points of tangency between classical and flamenco technique and to exclude classical on religious grounds seems silly. [8|][8|][8|]



guitarbuddha -> RE: Conversation starter: "Speed exercises" (Jan. 27 2014 0:02:43)

I think we should have a Loyalty Oath for the general section of this foro.

Anyone wanting to post should be advised first to read and agree with it.

Anyone who has signed and is seen to be abiding by the oath also has the right to add to it.

With this oath in place we would surely have a vibrant and fascinating general section at last.

JH.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Conversation starter: "Speed exercises" (Jan. 27 2014 0:22:45)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

I hope this satisfies you and we can get back to the point of the thread.


the point of the thread being....
that someone on a classical guitar forum says "speed exercises"
(whatever he means by that)
don't help with learning or playing classical repertoire.
Seems way off topic to me....


So... what will it take you to stop posting in this thread?



El Burro Flamencuro -> RE: Conversation starter: "Speed exercises" (Jan. 27 2014 1:19:30)

There are several different ways to achieve your end goal. You need the technique and you need the Fret board hand memory to play repertoire(if your genre has repertoire, if not...well you still might need to memorize falsetas, or learn how to improvise(still has a library of chords memorized)). Above all, in my opinion speed comes from a psychological state of not thinking, just doing. You feel the notes and you feel the rhythm but you're not actively thinking about what's coming next. In my opinion, A lot of classical players do the opposite, and think about every single little detail and a lot of times...it's brain overload, they can't possibly think about every nuance and execute them all. Or some of them worry about the slightest buzz or mess up and end up sounding like robots. In my opinion thinking about every little detail, ruins the fun; you should try to build the skill-set to know what you want to do here and there on your own, when you come up to that part of the song, you can feel how you want to execute it...a split second before you play. Same thing for dynamics. Feel the song and make that come out when you play...hrmmm Aire?



ToddK -> RE: Conversation starter: "Speed exercises" (Jan. 27 2014 3:21:27)

Yawn, snore, drool, lock thread...



mark indigo -> RE: Conversation starter: "Speed exercises" (Jan. 27 2014 13:14:15)

quote:

There are many points of tangency between classical and flamenco technique and to exclude classical on religious grounds seems silly.
there's quite a bit of difference between excluding all mention of classical guitar completely [which I am NOT advocating] and liberally posting classical guitar videos regardless of relevance [what does the Brouwer arpegio study have to do with "speed exercises"?]



aeolus -> RE: Conversation starter: "Speed exercises" (Jan. 27 2014 13:23:18)

e·tude (ā′to̅o̅d′, -tyo̅o̅d′)
n. Music
1. A piece composed for the development of a specific point of technique.



mark indigo -> RE: Conversation starter: "Speed exercises" (Jan. 27 2014 13:25:07)

quote:

So... what will it take you to stop posting in this thread?


you want to prevent me from posting? really? you would probably have to get me banned or get the thread locked[:D][:D]

ok, let me try this from another angle.

What is the question you want to ask here?
is it "do speed exercises work?"
or "do flamenco guitarists practise specific exercises to develop fast playing?"

If that's what you want to know, just ask that,
no need to import someone's thread from another forum.
You might also need to define "speed exercises" though,
but you need to define it from the point of view of what YOU mean by it,
not what someone on another forum means by it.

Do you mean taking a scale and exercise and gradually increasing the speed you play it at?
Or do you mean "speed burst" exercises like the ones in Pumping Nylon?
Or do you mean just any exercise that someone has used to develop speed (could be anything)?



mark indigo -> RE: Conversation starter: "Speed exercises" (Jan. 27 2014 13:28:06)

quote:

e·tude (ā′to̅o̅d′, -tyo̅o̅d′)
n. Music
1. A piece composed for the development of a specific point of technique.


the thread is about "speed exercises".

Is the arpegio study video you posted a "speed exercise"?



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Conversation starter: "Speed exercises" (Jan. 27 2014 13:55:12)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

e·tude (ā′to̅o̅d′, -tyo̅o̅d′)
n. Music
1. A piece composed for the development of a specific point of technique.


the thread is about "speed exercises".

Is the arpegio study video you posted a "speed exercise"?


I think it's safe to discard the undefined "speed exercises" and just substitute "exercises". The argument is really about transferability and whether skills developed in isolation help in repertoire. When posed that way, the answer becomes rather obvious. Working on scales directly helps scales in pieces. Working on arpeggios or tremolo plugs right into pieces. Stacatto open string patterns tighten up your RH movements. Heck, Grisha gave me a cool secret exercise when he came here to Tempe--and it works (Thanks G-man!). So, exercises work.

So, what of CG versus flamenco? Well, some of us play or have played both styles. They are the same instrument, after all. I would guess that flamenco is a more modular style, that the technique is more easily ported from piece to piece, and that exercises are thus even more useful in flamenco than in CG. That might explain why there are so many flamenco ex out there.

What of the idea that exercises don't transfer to rep? That you can play the exercise, laboriously moving up the metronome step by step (as if that's the only way to learn anything), and then at the end, it has no bearing on anything? In that case, the exercise was probably not the most effective one for you at that time. On the other hand, I think we have all had the experience of repeating a passage, getting it down, but having it fall apart when it's inserted into its general context.

There is a solution here! I heard that Chen, the teacher of those amazing Chinese CGers on Youtube, has them play the piece, play the offending passage three times, and then continue. The hard part gets extra work, but the passage still retains its context. So, hopefully the work will transfer.



aeolus -> RE: Conversation starter: "Speed exercises" (Jan. 27 2014 13:55:15)

quote:

the thread is about "speed exercises".

Is the arpegio study video you posted a "speed exercise"?


If you mean arpeggio, yes.



Ruphus -> RE: Conversation starter: "Speed exercises" (Jan. 27 2014 16:18:59)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

I heard that Chen, the teacher of those amazing Chinese CGers on Youtube, has them play the piece, play the offending passage three times, and then continue. The hard part gets extra work, but the passage still retains its context. So, hopefully the work will transfer.


Always interested in hearing of his didactics.
Got more bits?
-

I agree with your view and with what Grisha said above.
One may come to wonder and shall realize that exercises for enhancing speed if conducted well ( always ensuring correct execution) will most likely result in better mastering of the technique, including within context of pieces.

Ruphus



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Conversation starter: "Speed exercises" (Jan. 28 2014 1:36:40)

Sorry Ruphus, that's the only one. However, I do have a DVD of him teaching masterclasses, but all in Chinese and I don't speak!



Ruphus -> RE: Conversation starter: "Speed exercises" (Jan. 28 2014 9:32:05)

Ahh, too bad! Me don´t understand Chinese either. :O[

Ruphus



mark indigo -> RE: Conversation starter: "Speed exercises" (Jan. 28 2014 11:59:59)

quote:

If you mean arpeggio, yes.
no, I mean arpegio. It's Spanish.

quote:

quote:

the thread is about "speed exercises".

Is the arpegio study video you posted a "speed exercise"?

If you mean arpeggio, yes.
I never would have thought that that arpegio study you posted was a "speed exercise".


If you want an arpegio study you could try this



there is a close up of the first section here



and if you want the score/tab you will have to get one of his DVD's produced by La Sonanta


Or you could try this arpegio exercise por bulerías from Gerardo Nuñez.
I couldn't find a clip of Gerardo playing it, so you'll have to make do with someone else.
You can watch Gerardo playing it on his "Encuentro" DVD (comes with a score/tab/translation book)



and if you're having trouble with your thumb try this, also from Gerardo's Encuentro vid [btw the DVD has a whole hour dedicated to technique, with sections on pulgar, arpegio, picado, tremolo, rasgueado] and also here played by someone else



another version of the same exercise, here played by someone else you might recognise[;)]



another arpegio "exercise", this is from vol 3 of Oscar Herrero's Paso a Paso series



If you want input on flamenco technique in general here is volume 1.
Each volume starts with a solo piece and thereafter is devoted to technique.
Explanations, exercises and a few falseta examples.



volume 2. same format



and volume 3. ditto



mark indigo -> [Deleted] (Jan. 28 2014 12:02:10)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jan. 28 2014 12:24:11



aeolus -> RE: Conversation starter: "Speed exercises" (Jan. 28 2014 15:00:04)

quote:

If you want input on flamenco technique in general here is volume 1.
Each volume starts with a solo piece and thereafter is devoted to technique.
Explanations, exercises and a few falseta examples.


Thanks for all that great information Mark. Looks like the Oscar Herrero method is the way to go. Amazon says it's out of print but Fast Strings has it for download. I did find vol.1 on a place called 4Share and it is a copy of a facsimile but looks legible and with baby steps rather than the Paco Pena which describes itself as from the student(!) repertory.



mark indigo -> RE: Conversation starter: "Speed exercises" (Jan. 28 2014 16:44:43)

quote:

Amazon says it's out of print but Fast Strings has it for download. I did find vol.1 on a place called 4Share and it is a copy of a facsimile but looks legible and with baby steps rather than the Paco Pena which describes itself as from the student(!) repertory.

the Paco Peña "music from the student repertory" book is just what it says, the "students" being from his degree course in Rotterdam (Erik here was on it).

As well as the book and cd of PP playing, there is now a DVD of a young guitarist playing all the stuff from the original book/cd [the book being a transcription of the music on the cd] at normal speed and in slow sections.
http://www.amazon.com/Toques-Flamencos-DVD-Booklet-Spanish/dp/8493846872/ref=sr_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1390931185&sr=1-6


some of the Oscar Herrero vids are available on Amazon.com from marketplace sellers,
here are the first two volumes, dealing with basic technique, and yes, he does break things down into fairly small pieces in these vids
http://www.amazon.com/Guitarra-Flamenca-paso-Flamenco-Guitar/dp/8493445118/ref=pd_sim_b_2
http://www.amazon.com/Guitarra-Flamenca-paso-Flamenco-Guitar/dp/8493445126/ref=pd_sim_b_5


I think sheetmusicplus.com are in the US?
http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/composers/oscar-herrero-sheet-music/1811108


or you can order from Spain
http://www.storemusic-live.es/FichaArticulo~x~Guitarra-Flamenca-Paso-a-Paso-Score-Book-Oscar-Herrero~IDArticulo~79~lang~EN.html



aeolus -> RE: Conversation starter: "Speed exercises" (Jan. 28 2014 17:37:18)

quote:


I think sheetmusicplus.com are in the US?


Yes...I ordered Vol. 1 from them just now. They offer cheap shipping at @2.99 tho it takes a while longer. Glad to hear the PP method was for advanced students as it was something of a bummer when I received it[:-]
I would be cool to find an original printing done by hand.



Ricardo -> RE: Conversation starter: "Speed exercises" (Jan. 28 2014 18:35:34)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

I hope this satisfies you and we can get back to the point of the thread.


the point of the thread being....
that someone on a classical guitar forum says "speed exercises"
(whatever he means by that)
don't help with learning or playing classical repertoire.
Seems way off topic to me....



same old arguments, it's silly. Problem is context and the word "speed" having negative connotation. Mclaughlin never speaks about speed, because he knows it's about RHYTHM. He calls them "fluency exercises".... more clear concept of the point of developing ability on the fingerboard. Fluency to get around so you can control rhythm and phrasing....essential for ANY player, ANY style.

Ricardo



aeolus -> RE: Conversation starter: "Speed exercises" (Jan. 28 2014 21:08:47)

Not everybody has gotten the word:




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