Guitar scale lenght and tension

Guitar scale lenght and tension (Full Version)

Foro Flamenco: http://www.foroflamenco.com/
- Discussions: http://www.foroflamenco.com/default.asp?catApp=0
- - Lutherie: http://www.foroflamenco.com/in_forum.asp?forumid=22
- - - Guitar scale lenght and tension: http://www.foroflamenco.com/fb.asp?m=247939

Message

tele -> Guitar scale lenght and tension (Dec. 18 2013 11:58:36)
If building two guitars with the same plans, except that one guitar uses 662mm scale and the other 655mm scale, would the difference in string tension be very noticeable if using the same strings?

krichards -> RE: Guitar scale lenght and tension (Dec. 18 2013 12:40:56)
Its not clear if you are using the same plan for each guitar and just building with two different scale lengths OR maybe you are using two different plans? Anyway, all other things being equal then yes, you would notice a difference between the scale lengths. 662mm is considered fairly long, and 650mm is more or less an industry standard now. 655mm is a compromise and this is the scale I prefer myself

tele -> RE: Guitar scale lenght and tension (Dec. 18 2013 12:56:05)
Actually I'm not building but I would like to know a bit about the effect of scale lenght on string tension, so my question in general would be about the feel for right and left hands on the string tension. Would the tension be so different that the same string set might feel like high tension on the longer guitar?`

orsonw -> RE: Guitar scale lenght and tension (Dec. 18 2013 13:14:21)
quote: I would like to know a bit about the effect of scale lenght on string tension Search the foro, there have been very many threads about this. Also try searching for "pulsation" e.g. http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=135815&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=pulsation&tmode=&smode=&s=#135945 http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=106565&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=tension%2Cscale&tmode=&smode=&s=#106568 http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=64518&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=660&tmode=&smode=&s=#64905

tri7/5 -> RE: Guitar scale lenght and tension (Dec. 18 2013 13:49:44)
quote: ORIGINAL: tele Would the tension be so different that the same string set might feel like high tension on the longer guitar?` No one can answer that but you. The tension would be greater from a pure physics standpoint yes. To what extreme you'll feel it is subjective to the player. You may or may not even realize you're on a longer scale.

etta -> RE: Guitar scale lenght and tension (Dec. 18 2013 16:02:17)
In theory and practice, for the most part, the tension would be greater with the longer scale all other factors being equal. But, the tension, pulsation, build into two identical guitars of the same scale length can differ even with the same action heights. I have several guitars by the same maker, all the same scale; tension is very similar on three of them; the fourth has much greater tension. I lowered the action on this guitar (already low) and managed to bring it into the same tension "feel" as the other three. I once owned a 664 scale, and with all I could do, it played stiff. Yes, I agree also that a 655 is a good compromise.

Anders Eliasson -> RE: Guitar scale lenght and tension (Dec. 18 2013 16:03:13)
quote: Would the tension be so different that the same string set might feel like high tension on the longer guitar?` no. There´s very little difference.

jshelton5040 -> RE: Guitar scale lenght and tension (Dec. 18 2013 18:05:48)
quote: ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson quote: Would the tension be so different that the same string set might feel like high tension on the longer guitar?` no. There´s very little difference. Anders is correct. There are too many variables to make a definitive statement about the effect of scale length.

El Burdo -> RE: Guitar scale lenght and tension (Dec. 18 2013 18:07:18)
Using simple equations and comparing two scale lengths, one of 660mm and one 650mm... Assuming the same string (i.e. same mass per unit length) and assuming the same note..the 660 string will be at a tension 103% of the 650 string. So, there has to be more to it.

keith -> RE: Guitar scale lenght and tension (Dec. 18 2013 22:57:20)
tele, here is the equation for changes in string tension due to a change in scale length. i provided an example using a string tension of 15.08 pounds. an engineer gave me the formula. KST x (NSL / OSL) ^2 = NT where: KST = Known String Tension NSL = New Scale Length OSL= Old Scale Length ^2 = Squared NT = New String Tension example: the string was rated at 15.08 pounds on a 655mm scale length and it is now placed on a guitar with a 662mm scale length (15.08 pounds X( 662mm / 655mm) ^2 = 15.38 pounds. whether or not the new number is significant depends on the player and the guitar.

tele -> RE: Guitar scale lenght and tension (Dec. 19 2013 11:29:56)
quote: ORIGINAL: keith tele, here is the equation for changes in string tension due to a change in scale length. i provided an example using a string tension of 15.08 pounds. an engineer gave me the formula. KST x (NSL / OSL) ^2 = NT where: KST = Known String Tension NSL = New Scale Length OSL= Old Scale Length ^2 = Squared NT = New String Tension example: the string was rated at 15.08 pounds on a 655mm scale length and it is now placed on a guitar with a 662mm scale length (15.08 pounds X( 662mm / 655mm) ^2 = 15.38 pounds. whether or not the new number is significant depends on the player and the guitar. Cool, that's pretty useful info

orsonw -> RE: Guitar scale lenght and tension (Dec. 19 2013 12:43:54)
quote: I once owned a 664 scale, and with all I could do, it played stiff. I have owned low pulsation guitars (including 670 scale) that certainly get stiffer with the highest tension strings but never really have a pulsation that suits me. I assume that you tried low tension strings on the 664 scale? If so doesn't this suggest that string tension is only one of several factors influencing 'stiffness'? My understanding is that how the guitar itself (mainly the top?) responds to the string is most significant, scale length is a side issue? Isn't the engineering calculation meaningless because it's based on the false assumption that the string is attached to two fixed points. I think the guitar moves that's how it makes a noise (and no two guitars move quite the same)? And I presume the incalculable mysteries of how they move is what inspires the luthiers? In my experience, the only way I know to judge a guitar's 'stiffness' is to play it. Or maybe I'm no good at maths? Please educate me (gently!)

tele -> RE: Guitar scale lenght and tension (Dec. 19 2013 12:51:01)
quote: ORIGINAL: orsonw My understanding is that how the guitar itself (mainly the top?) responds to the string is most significant, scale length is a side issue? Isn't the engineering calculation meaningless because it's based on the false assumption that the string is attached to two fixed points. I think the guitar moves that's how it makes a noise (and no two guitars are quite the same)? . Stiffness of the top certainly can make same scale guitar with same strings feel different(so if you have two guitars with two different top tensions/pulsation) However I think the calculation is useful when thinking about situation when you make two guitars with the same stiffness and think how much added scale lenght would add to the string tension. Am I right?

keith -> RE: Guitar scale lenght and tension (Dec. 19 2013 13:49:23)
the string calculation is a measurement with all other variables held constant and the only variable that changes is the length between the nut and saddle. since a guitar is more than nut and saddle other factors have to be taken into account to make a judgement how a given tension will work. that said, the equation does allow one to know how a string's tension will change. the number only has relevancy when there is a framework to make a judgement.

Anders Eliasson -> RE: Guitar scale lenght and tension (Dec. 19 2013 15:31:18)
quote: My understanding is that how the guitar itself (mainly the top?) responds to the string is most significant, scale length is a side issue? My experience, and this is based on building and trying and not on crebral calculations, is that stiffness of a guitar is 5% scalelength, 25% stringtension and 70% how the soundboard and braces have been balanced. besides, in my hands, a stiff guitar always feels stiff never mind the other two factors, A soft guitar and a sloppy guitar the same.

beno -> RE: Guitar scale lenght and tension (Dec. 20 2013 6:28:22)
I went from a 660 guitar to a 650, and the strings I used the most didn't worked anymore, at least not in the same tension, as it was too low. I'm sure there are plenty of factors, but I significally felt the difference.

Page: [1]

Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET