Alzapua question... (Full Version)

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Guest -> Alzapua question... (Nov. 21 2005 20:26:22)

I am just starting to learn flamenco guitar. Do most people anchor their right hand to a string or the guitar when playing alzapua? Or just play freehand?



koella -> RE: Alzapua question... (Nov. 21 2005 21:34:43)

Read my alzapua tread in "members discussion"



sorin popovici -> RE: Alzapua question... (Nov. 22 2005 1:30:52)

no anchoring allowed ...I think Paco De Lucia or Nunez dont do it ,and they are pretty fast.

I think Moraito does the anchoring (I think I've seen that ...maybe I'm wrong ) but he
has a different sound.I've seen a book that said that anchoring was good,and like
you tried the anchoring ...I just droped this habit and I'm very satisfied.
This is my experience.



Francisco -> RE: Alzapua question... (Nov. 22 2005 10:12:01)

Gerhard Martinez-Graf anchors his hand in his instructional DVD



Skai -> RE: Alzapua question... (Nov. 22 2005 10:16:23)

Same issue as with many other flamenco techniques. The key sentence that will summarise everything people tell you will be, 'Do whatever you like and just get a good flamenco tone'. There aren't exactly 'wrong' or 'right' techniques in flamenco, there are only 'stupid and ridiculous' and 'effective and great sounding' techniques. [;)]



Jon Boyes -> RE: Alzapua question... (Nov. 22 2005 14:38:33)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Skai
There aren't exactly 'wrong' or 'right' techniques in flamenco, there are only 'stupid and ridiculous' and 'effective and great sounding' techniques. [;)]


Give that man a medal. [:D]



sorin popovici -> RE: Alzapua question... (Nov. 22 2005 15:37:09)

What do u smile Jon ..we ,the begginers, know this phrases by heart by now :D.

Still , I disagree...the anchroring is bad in my opinion.Ask duende...why doesnt
he do the anchoring ?Sure, u can do it with the anchoring but u get a different sound IMO :D.
I like pdl's Almoraima ...and he has there some fast alzapua(not the begining) which I believe
is not very complicated ...but he does it at super great speed ..I just dont think, u can get
that sound ...and get to that speed with the anchoring way.I've seen that graf martinez recommends anchoring ...but I believe that the anchoring it's sort of a old way to do it.



XXX -> RE: Alzapua question... (Nov. 22 2005 15:50:37)

Isnt it better at least for training purpose to anchor? Thats what i keep reading in the methods.
Just curious.

ps sorin: on the DVD Martinez exactly does the Almoraima section, of course not that fast, but its a method so it would be counterproductive to do it...



ToddK -> RE: Alzapua question... (Nov. 22 2005 16:19:28)

Anchoring is for sailboats.

Alzapua should be free hand.[;)]

TK



sorin popovici -> RE: Alzapua question... (Nov. 22 2005 16:40:05)

I know he does Phrygus...but I was refering not to the begining of track(more like at 2.05
minute ).As for not helping too much doing it fast ...I listened to some tracks from Estudio
tecnica de la guitarra flamenca Manuel Granados...he plays the arpeggios estudios super fast.
And one more thing ...if u remember right ,Graf Martinez does it first at normal speed and then at slow speed.The one at normal speed is pretty slow for PDL.I'm not saying that
he cant do it that fast, I dont really know that ....but I say since he plays also a slow version,
I dont think nobody would have been too upset cause the normal speed example is way too fast.

Sorry ,to edit ...I just reread that U said the DVD graf martinez...I listened the audio examples
from the book ,I dont have the DVD.



XXX -> RE: Alzapua question... (Nov. 22 2005 17:00:37)

Just to preciese this: Anchoring does mean that you first put your thumb on the top string, D or A whatever, and then pull it down/stroke right?

In the DVD Martinez says that this is the most profound thing to pay attention.

Sorin, i also read smth wrong. He doesnt do the really fast section of Almoraima; its only the beginning, but of course not in that speed, which would be nonsense for a method which is aiming to teach.



Ricardo -> RE: Alzapua question... (Nov. 22 2005 18:01:17)

quote:

Just to preciese this: Anchoring does mean that you first put your thumb on the top string, D or A whatever, and then pull it down/stroke right?


No that is PLANTING, or resting; anchoring would be putting a finger on the soundboard and leaving it there to stabilize the hand. You can't move your wrist or arm if you are anchored, but you can still move the thumb. It really depends on how you want to be executing the technique before we can say do or don't do something.

Ricardo



Jon Boyes -> RE: Alzapua question... (Nov. 23 2005 8:17:41)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
anchoring would be putting a finger on the soundboard and leaving it there to stabilize the hand.


Yes, or the top string, which is what Martinez is suggesting.

BTW just to clarify this, GM is suggesting this approach as a means to LEARN alzapua. Ie start off with IMA anchored on the top string, do the alzapua by moving from the thumb joint at the wrist only. The idea is that the hand is stabilised and its easier to concentrate on getting the feel/rhythm right. Its also easier to practice for longer periods with this approach as there is less of a bend at the wrist and less strain on the hand.

Once the basic feel/rhythm is mastered, the student can then start putting the wrist into it.

I have to say this approach worked well for me. I thought I was playing totally from the thumb base joint but I checked what I was doing and my alzapua is now kind of a hybrid, I move both the thumb base joint and the wrist/forearm, so basically I started putting the wrist action into it without even realising it.



luke.park -> RE: Alzapua question... (Dec. 31 2005 10:01:28)

ive just started freeing up my alzapua as i was stuck anchoring and felt it didnt sound as free and couldnt cover as many strings as other players. my teacher has shwon me his way without anchoring and i am learning to control this. the wrist/ forearm movement is developing with it but tis annoying as i am having to apply it to my already learnt and anchored falsetas which takes me back a bit but hey, the results feel freer and more relaxed. i would definitely recommend not anchoring but then again it depends on the player and what works for them![:)]



Guest -> RE: Alzapua question... (Dec. 31 2005 10:47:11)

As everyone will say, there are all different ways of doing it.


I used to anchor for years, but stopped and saw immediate improvement. Not only is it faster and looser without, but with an anchor you can also hear finger and nail rubbing against the guitar board if you use a mic. I do use the golpe as a quick anchor to position my hand for the attack and as a leverage to get my thumb going.

http://www.flamenco-guitar-mainz.de/alzapuagrund2.htm
Here I ATTEMPT to teach my way of alzapua with text and videos, but it is one of many possibilities for many different hands....



XXX -> RE: Alzapua question... (Jan. 2 2006 18:04:25)

I dont plant or rest my thumb; is that bad? What is it good for?

Im soo slow when doing it with resting.



Guest -> RE: Alzapua question... (Jan. 2 2006 20:17:42)

quote:

Im soo slow when doing it with resting


Hi Deniz,

I think you mean the very first stroke that you make going into an alzapua? There I'll put my index against the first string to get my thumb going, or if I'm starting on a golpe I'll use that for leverage. After that my hand and thumb get momentum and I'm playing free. I think that's how most guitarists would do it.


Johnny
www.flamenco-guitar-mainz.de



XXX -> RE: Alzapua question... (Jan. 2 2006 20:36:52)

That might be helpful. I always tried to make it completely freehand.

But I also mean the next thumb strokes, starting on a bass string. In methods I read one should always plant the thumb on the string before hitting it.


Like:

|---0-0---0-0---0----|
|---3-3---3-3---3----|
|---3-3---3-3---3----|
|-3-----2-----0------|
|--------------------|
|--------------------|



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Alzapua question... (Jan. 2 2006 20:49:26)

Pedro Cortez said to always keep the index finger in contact with the first string.



XXX -> RE: Alzapua question... (Jan. 2 2006 21:33:16)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

Pedro Cortez said to always keep the index finger in contact with the first string.


Hard to make a string vibrate when its in contact with flesh.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Alzapua question... (Jan. 2 2006 22:19:45)

Do you always play the e string when you execute alzapua?



Guest -> RE: Alzapua question... (Jan. 2 2006 22:42:47)

quote:

But I also mean the next thumb strokes


There I just let the thumb cut in there without resting, meaning if I play the 6th string I play apoyando onto the 5th string below and let the thumb hit the 6th on the way in.

I think Miguel means the 1st E and not the sixth. I do always have my index finger just above the 1st and might even press against it lightly while playing alzapua for leverage or angle.

Johnny



Guest -> RE: Alzapua question... (Jan. 2 2006 22:45:56)

quote:

I think Miguel means the 1st E and not the sixth


Silly me, you must know that - sorry. Actually, if you wanna play the 1st at a certain point in a technique it'd probably be good to rest the index on it for when you want to play it.



XXX -> RE: Alzapua question... (Jan. 3 2006 8:07:02)

lol John I think your mixing somthing there. Of course its played apoyando. The second question apart from the resting of the thumb was how to let the 1st string ring.

Miguel, I like it more with the 1st string, but its not really a matter of choice. Depends on composition I think, unless youre improvising.

Besides I CANT play alzapua; its still in learning phase.

Just look at the example, bold notes should be played with resting before or not?



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Alzapua question... (Jan. 3 2006 14:02:21)

Deniz,
that's up to you...when you say resting, you mean planting. Generally, (in English at least), rest stroke is apoyando, planting is lightly placing the finger on the string right before playing it. I recommend planting at almost all times, it has really helped me develop. Anyways I hardly ever play the e string in Alzapua. I think it gets a grittier sound without it.



XXX -> RE: Alzapua question... (Jan. 3 2006 14:51:36)

Interesting views there, I was a bit confused by ricardos words, but sure I meant planting not resting/apoyando.

Wished they would do lot more alzapuas nowadays...[:(]



luke.park -> RE: Alzapua question... (Jan. 3 2006 21:41:23)

i love alzapua, it creates so much excitement and is exclusive to flamenco. juan martin, being the purist uses it a lot and with great effectiveness which is great!
ive realised recently that all the falsetas ive learnt up until recently i have been playing by anchoring the apoyando, as that was my old habit. its annoying how old habit can really pull you back![:)]



seanm -> RE: Alzapua question... (Jan. 9 2006 17:32:48)

I've been reviewing my alzapua technique lately and have been looking at the Encuentro Chicuelo video for reference. I was having trouble switching strings or starting with the accuaracy I would have liked (not getting a solid strike). I decided that it was an accuracy issue in that when I swithed from basic position to thumb position, I didn't have a reference point for my thumb to know where the bass strings where. I looked at Chicuelo's technique and noticed that in almost every instance, he'd brush the 1st string with his index finger (sometimes planting it and other times not). I think this is simply a reflex action he does to find his hand position in relation to the bass strings.



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