New Guitar/What is it? (Full Version)

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GUITARMANR -> New Guitar/What is it? (Nov. 20 2005 19:15:54)

I went to a music store yesterday and off the cuff bought an old flamenco guitar.
It is beat up a bit but still plays well and sounds amazing!
The lable inside says this,

Manuel De La Chica

CONSTRUCTOR DE GUITARRAS

MALLORCA 219

BARCELONA, ESPANA

Tel. 761-28-4221

Also, it is signed by Manuel De La Chica and has the date 1964 in pen written on the lable.

So please, dose any one have any information about this type of guitar and Mr. De La Chica?

Thanks in advance. [:)]

Rich



gerundino63 -> RE: New Guitar/What is it? (Nov. 20 2005 19:39:59)

Think you are lucky![:D]

Look here at the classic guitars, you will find two guitars from the same builder.
https://www.danzeffguitars.com/showitem.cfm?id=136&menu=classical&type=guitars

Peter



Patrick -> RE: New Guitar/What is it? (Nov. 20 2005 20:33:57)

He was considered one of the best.

http://www.azstarnet.com/public/commerce/zavaletas/greene/zgranada.htm



nhills -> RE: New Guitar/What is it? (Nov. 20 2005 21:38:40)

Something is wrong here. Manuel de la Chica was from Granada. The label should be large, with a picture of the Alhambra.

I know - I have a '61.
Cheers,
Norman



Patrick -> RE: New Guitar/What is it? (Nov. 20 2005 21:52:33)

quote:

Something is wrong here. Manuel de la Chica was from Granada. The label should be large, with a picture of the Alhambra.


Yep, you are correct. Something is a bit fishy.



Thomas Whiteley -> RE: New Guitar/What is it? (Nov. 21 2005 0:55:06)

Rich;

Can you take a picture of the label and the guitar top and post it here? Manuel De La Chica was from Granada. I have a 1951 he built. How much did you pay?

Two things about a Manuel De La Chica flamenco guitar: I have not played a guitar that is lighter or has a lower action without buzz. When I bought the instrument I also bought a small container of peg dope. I doped the pegs in July of 1970 and never again. It holds its tuning without a problem - no peg slippage.

Here is a picture of Manuel.




http://www.zavaletas-guitarras.com/files/zgranada.htm

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GUITARMANR -> RE: New Guitar/What is it? (Nov. 22 2005 0:40:19)

Hello and thanks for your replies.

I will try to post a photo with this post. I hope I get it right.
The guitar is scratched a lot on the top, like it was pick scraped.
There is also a crack on the top. The back and sides look ok.
This guitar is VERY light. Never found one this light before.
It has a lot of low end, highs are also good and it is very loud.
Much more so than my Yamaha 171sf
If one of you knowledgeable fellows can help me sort this out I would be grateful.

Thanks again,

Rich



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GUITARMANR -> RE: New Guitar/What is it? (Nov. 22 2005 0:57:54)

Here is a front view of my guitar. No matter what this is to me, it is the most awesome nylon stringed instrument I have ever heard.
The action is not super low, it is average for a classical guitar.

Oh, Tom I paid $100 for it. [:)]

Rich



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GUITARMANR -> RE: New Guitar/What is it? (Nov. 22 2005 1:42:44)

The back of my guitar.

The finish seems to be varnish and the nut and saddle ivory.
These are not the type of things used today, or on cheap guitars.
I hope this will be helpful.

Rich



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Thomas Whiteley -> RE: New Guitar/What is it? (Nov. 22 2005 23:08:02)

Rich;

I would have to see the guitar or have an expert examine it. Take this with a grain of salt. The guitar rosette is not one I have seen on a Manuel de la Chica, nor is the label. All the de la Chica’s I have seen and played were French polished. Also, I have not seen a de la Chica with a rosewood fret board – only ebony. The bridge does not look like an original.

One more picture would be nice. A picture of the headstock and pegs. I cannot make out the top of the headstock. Each builder has his own headstock design.

Again, this instrument would have to be checked by a knowledgeable person. Looking at pictures is not the same as having the instrument in your hands.

There is an old joke about Santos guitars. “Of the 400 Santos guitars built, only 1000 remain”. It is not unusual to have knockoffs.

For $100 you may well have gotten your moneys worth and then some! It may or may not be a de la Chica, but if it plays well, who cares? Upon looking at the pictures it does remind me of my de la Chica.

Here are a few pictures

http://www.elderly.com/vintage/items/28U-1816.htm



GUITARMANR -> RE: New Guitar/What is it? (Nov. 22 2005 23:48:10)

Rich;

I would have to see the guitar or have an expert examine it. Take this with a grain of salt. The guitar rosette is not one I have seen on a Manuel de la Chica, nor is the label. All the de la Chica’s I have seen and played were French polished. Also, I have not seen a de la Chica with a rosewood fret board – only ebony. The bridge does not look like an original.

One more picture would be nice. A picture of the headstock and pegs. I cannot make out the top of the headstock. Each builder has his own headstock design.

Again, this instrument would have to be checked by a knowledgeable person. Looking at pictures is not the same as having the instrument in your hands.

There is an old joke about Santos guitars. “Of the 400 Santos guitars built, only 1000 remain”. It is not unusual to have knockoffs.

For $100 you may well have gotten your moneys worth and then some! It may or may not be a de la Chica, but if it plays well, who cares? Upon looking at the pictures it does remind me of my de la Chica.


...................................

Hello Tom,

Do you mean to say that someone made a fake label put it on this guitar, and tried to pass it off as an official de la Chica?

What a scoundrel! Actually until I posted here I’ve never heard of a de la Chica, so it is all lost on me anyways.

The guys at the music store where I bought it did not seem to think much of it, and even poked fun at me for buying it by calling me Estoban. haha

As you say for $100 bucks I'm happy with this guitar as it sounds great and plays ok.

Now I have to figure out if I want to get that crack on the top fixed. Will likely cost more than the guitar?

Once again thanks for your help. [:)]

Rich



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GUITARMANR -> RE: New Guitar/What is it? (Nov. 22 2005 23:51:29)

And the back.

Maybe some day I'll find out what this really is?



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Thomas Whiteley -> RE: New Guitar/What is it? (Nov. 23 2005 21:49:04)

Check the link I gave you and you will see that the headstock is not the same.



Argaith -> RE: New Guitar/What is it? (Jul. 21 2010 19:50:10)

Is this:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Old-1964-Vintage-Spanish-Classical-Flamenco-Guitar-/130408960046?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Guitar&hash=item1e5cfad02e

the same guitar?!
I think it is!



HemeolaMan -> RE: New Guitar/What is it? (Jul. 21 2010 20:22:14)

strikes me as odd. too good to be true.

and $580 for a fake is theft. especially with that background story



Peter Tsiorba -> RE: New Guitar/What is it? (Jul. 21 2010 21:56:21)

I don't get it, GUITARMAN is asking about this guitar, which he supposedly bought, but it is also being sold, still a current auction on Ebay??? GUITARMAN, are you part of something fishy here? Hope not stepping on anyone's toes here. Am I missing something here, or are the dots not connecting???



Ramon Amira -> RE: New Guitar/What is it? (Jul. 21 2010 22:37:21)

Yeah, I was wondering the same thing. This sure looks like the same guitar, so how can it be in two places at once. One explanation that covers the facts is, if this is not the VERY same guitar, but merely the same model etc., then it could be that someone is just faking them, and sticking in labels. The cabeza design is completely different, a sure sign of a fake, and a label is not very hard to forge, although according to Nhills the label is not even the same. Everything points to a forgery, though if it is one it's a pretty feeble attempt, and would not fool anyone, so I just don't get it either.

Here is a photo of la Chica's label.
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/1307465

Ramon



Andy Culpepper -> RE: New Guitar/What is it? (Jul. 21 2010 22:44:56)

Look at the date on the original posts, this thread is from 2005

btw It is definitely not de la Chica



keith -> RE: New Guitar/What is it? (Jul. 21 2010 22:55:26)

I just came from e-bay and read the sad and eye watering account of the poor widow who gave the seller the guitar and how he had so many questions and such about the guitar and how everyone was clamoring to buy it after the bidding. The guitar shown above looks exactly like the one at e-bay.

Look at the high e-string on the guitar above and at e-bay. Both are going in the wrong direction at the peg. Makes me a little wary about this guitar and the story. I am thinking about sending this thread to e-bay.

By the way, what is with that comforter?



estebanana -> RE: New Guitar/What is it? (Jul. 22 2010 0:54:11)

I'm not saying I'm the final authority on de la Chica, but I know his work very well. That is not his line work or his rosette work.



Peter Tsiorba -> RE: New Guitar/What is it? (Jul. 22 2010 0:58:12)

Guitarman, something is not adding up here. I think this whole thread may have been a failed attempt to legitimize a fake, while it is still on ebay. Look at the sap line of the back near the back's center seam. It is the same guitar. The only way to convince me that this is a different guitar, would be to state that the "twin" came from the same flitch-sawn set of tonewood, a very, very unlikely situation. Even if that was the case, the width of the sap line, as well as its shape, would have varied a little. I say this is a scam/sob story that was a little too transparent for its own good.

Cheers Guitarman, ebayer, or whoever is trying to scam somebody, whoever you are. I suggest to take an honorable approach, and come clean. Maybe even pull this auction off line before it closed. For all I know, that first bid is by the buddy of the same guy who is trying to sell the guitar. That's my intuition. I smell a rat here.



kovachian -> RE: New Guitar/What is it? (Jul. 22 2010 1:14:26)

I've reported it to eBay, but I doubt they'll pull the listing.



Ramon Amira -> RE: New Guitar/What is it? (Jul. 22 2010 2:45:08)

It's clearly the same guitar, but Deteresa has pointed out that the original thread was from 2005, so that solves the "in two places at once" business, and also the "in cahoots" business. Probably Guitarman sold it at some point and it wound up with the Ebay guy. It seems to me that the original post was an honest attempt to determine the value – he had no reason to lie back then. It's the Ebay guy who's lying with his touching "Grandmother" story. It really seems improbable that's it's actually a conscious forgery. No forger worthy of the name would come up with a pathetic attempt like that.

I did think of one other possibility, though unlikely. Perhaps this was made by de la Chica's son. Many sons of guitarreros follow in their father's footsteps, including famous ones – Manuel Reyes Hijo, Manuel Contreras Hijo, even Barbero's son, though because of Barbero's death he apprenticed with Arcangel Fernandez. And many others. And Guitarman said it sounded "amazing," though I have no way of knowing how good a judge of guitars he is. It really doesn't seem very probable, nor does the forgery idea, but there aren't many explanations why it should have a "de la Chica" label inside.

EDIT - I just realized the "Hijo" theory won't work - it was dated 1964.



estebanana -> RE: New Guitar/What is it? (Jul. 22 2010 5:27:34)

In 1964 in Spain most guitar shops did not have telephones. In small towns there was a bar or bus station that had a phone, but phone service in many small businesses was yet to come. The label has a phone number. I could be wrong, but that seems so strange to me.



This could have been a bigger music shop and they may have used de la Chica's name with his permission or without. However I have never seen any other guitars with that label and he was a such an idiosyncratic builder that I doubt he would have condoned this.

It's easy enough to make a fake label and even easier to detect one. If you shine black light on a label in the dark, newer ink will show up as florescent and shine in black light. Older oxidized papers and inks will not shine in black light. If the label floresces differently than other marks in and parts of the guitar then the label is suspect.

I would love to examine this guitar in person and see if the label is real or fake. Of course my curiosity and wallet for this thing is not Ebay compatible.



keith -> RE: New Guitar/What is it? (Jul. 22 2010 9:19:03)

This may solve or add to the mystery. I sent the seller an e-bay question about the cracks (see below). I intentionally used "5 years or so" to see where this guitar may have been around the time of the original post.

I am almost 100% the guitar in this thread and at e-bay are the same. Look at the pegs. Only the high E string peg has the silver insert in the peg (ok, I should know what that is but it is not coming to me this early in the morning).

If you read the original poster's posts he has a guitar background and would most likely know a "hump" from a bout (sp?). The original poster knew of nuts and saddles and the seller seems to not know this. If the poster and seller are the same I am not sure why he would go to so lengths to sound like a moron. Why not sound like you know what is going on and stay away from the widow story.

Something is not adding up...oh rather, it is. My thoughts about this guitar are the same as my thoughts about the temperatures these past couple of weeks....HOT.


NOTE: I have the e-mail and for posting here I removed my e-bay name.


Dear (I removed my e-bay name)

I was given the guitar 10 years ago...The first time I really looked at it was a month or two ago when I listed it on Ebay, Since I had to describe the physical condition. I don't know if the cracks changed since I received the guitar probably just as much as the cracks in the wall of my house have changed...sorry! I pressed around the cracks and they are solid for sure, the one on the hump looks darker around the crack and may be an old repair, the one on the top goes with the grain of the wood and wasn't noticable till I looked closely but is solid. I am happy just to have had a bid so I know it is gone and my wife will be happy...there are 137 people watching but that means nothing as evident from my last listing...Good Luck if u bid... Dore


- figonifalaschi Click "respond" to reply through Messages, or go to your email to reply






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Removed my e-bay name.
To: figonifalaschi
Subject: E-Bay Name Removed has sent a question about item #130408960046, ending on Jul-25-10 13:00:26 PDT - Old 1964 Vintage Spanish Classical Flamenco Guitar
Sent Date: Jul-21-10 16:14:21 PDT




Dear figonifalaschi,

How long have you owned it and has there been any movement with the cracks? I am interested if the cracks have not moved in, say 5 years or so. Thanks.


- Removed my e-bay name



Argaith -> RE: New Guitar/What is it? (Jul. 22 2010 10:29:09)

Like Peter, I have no doubt that this is the same guitar.
Check the scraches around the golpeador; you can see them in the photos on the eBay ad.

Now, the question is if our fellow GUITARMANR bought this instrument in 2005, how's this person claiming to have owned it for the last 10 years?![8|]



Ramon Amira -> RE: New Guitar/What is it? (Jul. 22 2010 14:59:11)

I have another thought on this which I will give later - right now I have to go check the humps on my guitar.



keith -> RE: New Guitar/What is it? (Jul. 25 2010 20:22:14)

looks like someone is now in possesion of a guitar that could be hot. the buyer paid $760. i sent guitarman an e-mail alerting him to the situation. it will be interesting to see how this plays out.



Ramon Amira -> RE: New Guitar/What is it? (Jul. 25 2010 21:20:33)

Here are my thoughts on this.

1) It's most certainly the same guitar.

2) It's not any kind of professional forgery – any real forger would do a lot better job than that.

3) The EBAY seller could easily be the original poster – Guitarman. By now he would have figured out that this is not an authentic Manuel de la Chica, and is getting what he can.

4) Whether it's the original poster or someone else who wound up with the guitar after Guitarman figured out it wasn't real and so sold it, either person would not be stupid enough to try to sell it as authentic, knowing that that wouldn't fly. So he sells it on EBAY. Knowing that it's not real, the best thing to do is act naïve and totally in the dark. This is an old ploy that is done with many fakes, most notably with fake antique furniture. The idea is to make some sucker think "Wow, this dumbass doesn't know what he's got there. I can steal this from him for a song." With that in mind, even if it is Guitarman and he knows a bout from a "hump," or anyone else who actually does know guitars, the idea is to make it seem like he doesn't, hence words like "hump," which makes him seem like a bumpkin, and enhances the idea that he doesn't know the value of what he's got. He then buttresses that with that wonderful "Grandmother" line, etc.

5) None of this explains the origin and existence of a patently fake Manuel de la Chica label in a guitar that could not possibly pass as authentic. My theory is that some guitarrero in Barcelona, who couldn't make a name for himself, stuck these labels into his own guitars and either sold them to tourists who wouldn't know a de la Chica from Chico Marx, or possibly provided them to some little guitarreria in Barcelona, who sold them for a commission.



keith -> RE: New Guitar/What is it? (Jul. 25 2010 22:11:30)

the e-mail i sent to guitarman was kicked back undeliverable so i guess we will never know the true story. given how rough that guitar looked i hope the buyer got a good deal and not a broken down old mule.



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