RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (Full Version)

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aeolus -> RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (Nov. 4 2013 17:26:14)

quote:

Then, after lots of talking the woman plays of the LEFT side of her nail...


In the third video she demonstrates the manner of plucking the strings and the technique as I understand it consists of a rotation of the right hand to energize the strings which tends to move the point of contact to the right. She never mentions anything about what side of the nail should be used and what I read was something by some one else. Artz studied with Presti BTW.
I see she plays a guitar by Sergio Abru . A number of years ago I sent Abru a letter inquiring as to a guitar. He sent a reply but he sent it to Ms Artz and she transcribed it to an e-mail. She is his agent in the US and everything had to go thru her. I requested a 650 scale instrument and it was promised in 6 months but 6 came and went and on inquiry I was told that disaster of sorts struck as Abru farms the spray finish out and the guy didn't have AC and it was a brutally hot in Brazil that summer and the finish wouldn't dry and the guitars had to be taken back to the shop and the varnish scraped off. I was horrified but she offered my money back if I was not sure I wanted the instrument. So I went ahead with it and in due course drove up to Princeton to collect it from Ms Artz. She told me the case it came in from Brazil was so crappy I would want it and offered a US brand she said she bought at a discount. OK, the guitar was nice but I soon began to thank something was wrong and measuring the scale it was 640 which it turns out was his standard. The frets bunch up in the upper part of the fingerboard and I was uncomfortable with that so I sold it. Too bad as Abru says it takes 20 years for a spruce top to develop and that would be right about now if it had had the scale I ordered.



Arash -> RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (Nov. 4 2013 17:31:08)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

quote:



Good grief! check out her fingers! the i is longer than the rest.


How did you come up with a wacky conclusion like that? It's easily disproven by observation. See her left hand at 0:50 and following for a nice view of her fingers lying relaxed next to each other. 3:28+ for a nice view of the right hand. Surprise, it's the same as the left. There are many other places where this is obvious.


My i is about a 1/2 inch shorter than the m and a. Sorry about English measurement. We in the states have not accepted metric.


Speak for yourself. Many of us native Americans are perfectly comfortable using metric. If you feel compelled to convert but you personally have no clue about metric and no access to google, just say so.



Good grief! check out her fingers! the i is longer than the rest.


How did you come up with a wacky conclusion like that? It's easily disproven by observation. See her left hand at 0:50 and following for a nice view of her fingers lying relaxed next to each other. 3:28+ for a nice view of the right hand. Surprise, it's the same as the left. There are many other places where this is obvious.



My i is about a 1/2 inch shorter than the m and a. Sorry about English measurement. We in the states have not accepted metric.


Speak for yourself. Many of us native Americans are perfectly comfortable using metric. If you feel compelled to convert but you personally have no clue about metric and no access to google, just say so.




I was being facetious about metric tho it wasn't to long ago that NASA lost a probe over Mars when the civilian contractor on the project used English measurement and NASA used metric.

Native American? What tribe?


Thats because in your picture her right hand is bended and the i finger is more strechted than the rest. I could do the same and take a picture and make it look like that too.

You need to look at her hand while all fingers are completely strechted like here as shown below, and you will see that the i finger is not longer than the rest. It is long but not abnormally long:



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



Ricardo -> RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (Nov. 4 2013 18:40:39)

Lot of people talk about what PDL is doing with his technique. Many players in spain simply copy him and can do something similar, but funny that the talkers about the technique can't really do it , or are seeing something different. Likewise I hear about this woman's technique for years. Time for the horses mouth. Here you can see the right hand at 4:26



I have to say, her approach is similar to flamenco (playing straight on with bent wrist and middle joints curled), although we only see tirandos, and she has so much un needed movements to get a good nail attack it seems. I think she could have been more efficient and less tense by holding more steady, and nail shape could let her hit at only one angle instead of moving. Perhaps cuz she is female she gets all the attention? Because her male partner there seems to have a much more efficient and relaxed technique IMO.

Ricardo



aeolus -> RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (Nov. 4 2013 19:39:26)

Yes her right hand movements are exaggerated but I think much of that is her way of expression something that many classical players do in other ways--body movements; facial expressions; and in the case of Glen Gould he hummed along much to the distress of recording engineers. Flamencos perhaps because the environment in which they perform tend to be inexpressive and the more subtle attention to detail doesn't exist as far as I can see. If you watch Artz's video #3 you can see the rotation and tirando attack that she demonstrates. Presti really has an extreme hand position that might have caused her trouble in later years if she had lived. Some have opined that Segovia's loss of virtuosity was from stretched tendons in his wrist.



Arash -> RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (Nov. 4 2013 20:17:56)

As far as most 'economic' and perfect right hand movement is concerned , no one is in the same street as Gerardo Nunez.

And how is the enviroment flamencos tend to perform in, is 'inexpressive'?
Don't get it. Specially in comparison with the enviroment classical players tend to perform in.



Paul Magnussen -> RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (Nov. 4 2013 20:19:53)

quote:

Perhaps cuz she is female she gets all the attention?


ROFL. She played in public for the first time when she was eight, gave her first concert at ten, and recorded for HMV at thirteen.

Many people — including Jack Duarte, who knew her well, as well as most of the great guitarists, including Segovia — considered her the greatest classical guitarist of the century, and possibly of all time.

That's just an opinion, of course, but it's hardly that of a musical ignoramus. I was lucky enough to see Presti/Lagoya at the Wigmore Hall in January 1967; and if I had to put my money down on one particular guitarist, I'd put it in the same place.




Sr. Martins -> RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (Nov. 4 2013 20:40:26)

quote:

And how is the enviroment flamencos tend to perform in, is 'inexpressive'?


Maybe aeolus was thinking about fado [:D]



aeolus -> RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (Nov. 4 2013 20:42:17)

quote:

And how is the enviroment flamencos tend to perform in, is 'inexpressive'?
Don't get it. Specially in comparison with the enviroment classical players tend to perform in.


How many flamencos play harmonics? I have never heard one. This video shows what I am referring to but he is powerfully amplified which is common but it was'ny too long ago that that was not the case and rapt attention and total; quit were required.




Sr. Martins -> RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (Nov. 4 2013 20:52:00)

Flamenco's environment lets you break the dishes yourself while the guitarist plays.



Erik van Goch -> [Deleted] (Nov. 4 2013 20:57:38)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 4 2013 21:31:23



Paul Magnussen -> RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (Nov. 4 2013 21:16:46)

Interesting, that’s the first I’ve heard of that. Did your dad hear it from her? Or from somebody else?

Because my understanding was that Lagoya altered his technique to conform with hers.

Furthermore, photos and the film of her as a child (in La Petite Chose) show her hands in the same position.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.tar.gr/28/Ida_Presti-005.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.tar.gr/en/content/content/print.php?id%3D453&h=676&w=500&sz=32&tbnid=98MzVEyWGxqSGM:&tbnh=84&tbnw=62&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dida%2Bpresti%2Bphotos%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=ida+presti+photos&usg=__P5_Fywk6ORtAQjL8_5zLQ104-x0=&sa=X&ei=XBx4Uv2_HaXmsASOtoGABA&ved=0CCMQ9QEwAw



Erik van Goch -> RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (Nov. 4 2013 22:09:01)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul Magnussen

Interesting, that’s the first I’ve heard of that. Did your dad hear it from her? Or from somebody else?

Because my understanding was that Lagoya altered his technique to conform with hers.

Furthermore, photos and the film of her as a child (in La Petite Chose) show her hands in the same position.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.tar.gr/28/Ida_Presti-005.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.tar.gr/en/content/content/print.php?id%3D453&h=676&w=500&sz=32&tbnid=98MzVEyWGxqSGM:&tbnh=84&tbnw=62&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dida%2Bpresti%2Bphotos%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=ida+presti+photos&usg=__P5_Fywk6ORtAQjL8_5zLQ104-x0=&sa=X&ei=XBx4Uv2_HaXmsASOtoGABA&ved=0CCMQ9QEwAw


It seems i created my own truth. All he could tell me (besides the fact she was a miracle as a child and he didn't like the duets despite their great tone) was that his teacher told him she cried behind stage because her hand/arm hurt so much. So forget what i said, i took the liberty to delete it.

Thanks for the change to correct myself.



Ricardo -> RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (Nov. 5 2013 12:57:26)

quote:

ROFL. She played in public for the first time when she was eight, gave her first concert at ten, and recorded for HMV at thirteen.


Hey, it really was a question I asked, I don't mean to offend. I based my opinion on the videos I found of HER, I know her rep. I was
really impressed as a teen to hear the duets, that scarlatti that always gets reissued etc. But it's TWO people, and hard to tell who is
doing what. For sure they have a great tone and timing and expression etc. But I gather more info, personally, when I SEE a
performance. I could only find decent footage of her playing this and some villa lobos, and I am only calling it how I see it. Her Villa
lobos was not anything amazing for me. THe wrist and un needed movement I see, and the nose down in the fingerboard all the
time... no wonder she had pain. She needed more relaxing and use a mirror to keep her chin up etc.

I always heard about her odd technique but I don't see it as so odd, just suspect nail shape might have helped her get the sound she
wants with less movement. Lagoya seems to have a very smooth and relaxed technique, yet he is down played historically or in her
shadow I will say. I saw the Assad bros, and it was a totally different experience from just hearing recordings and reading about the
two virtuoso brothers etc. What I saw was Odair was the virtuoso doing all the tough lead parts with a cool controlled technique,
Sergio more the arranger/musical minded fellow with a sort of unorthodox technique, certainly the weaker player. Together it works
of course, and I was expecting the same deal with Presti lagoya here but not seeing it that way. Of course, I was NOT there and
would love to see more footage if it exists perhaps my opinion would change? For now, I find it hard to accept her as the greatest of
all time with this amazing unique technique, based on these vids. And duarte...gosh that brings back bad memories from college of
playing his weird ensemble pieces.



Ricardo -> RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (Nov. 5 2013 13:10:39)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

quote:

And how is the enviroment flamencos tend to perform in, is 'inexpressive'?
Don't get it. Specially in comparison with the enviroment classical players tend to perform in.


How many flamencos play harmonics? I have never heard one. This video shows what I am referring to but he is powerfully amplified which is common but it was'ny too long ago that that was not the case and rapt attention and total; quit were required.




many since ramon montoya who played harmonics and probably dozens before him. Why do you constantly make blanket statements if you don't really know about the genre??? sheeeesh man.

Famous one off top of my head 3:36




aeolus -> RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (Nov. 5 2013 14:13:18)

quote:

many since ramon montoya who played harmonics and probably dozens before him


Let me amend that to say I never saw a video of a flamenco using harmonics nor heard one on my CDs but they are mostly those of Vicente Amigo. I am chagrined to learn I am the only one on the forum that makes incorrect statements.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (Nov. 5 2013 15:37:42)

Heard from a composer, Gilardino, who apparently knew her that her nails were filed "naively" and her weird technique was probably a result of this.



z6 -> RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (Nov. 5 2013 16:23:51)

quote:


Flamencos perhaps because the environment in which they perform tend to be inexpressive and the more subtle attention to detail doesn't exist as far as I can see.



That is unfortunate for you.

Are you actually serious? There is a thing called nuance and flamencos don't got it?

You're 'amusical' chum. I've seen arhythmic people dance. They are entirely unaware, it seems, that music often has a pulse.

Is this what you have, do you think?

Can you explain nuance so that the rest of us have an idea of what shape these illusory perceptions might be making?

I don't understand either why the tears for Presti. What gives? Was she a slave?

And while you're at it. What's an inexpressive environment? I am aware of no music that could be more expressive than flamenco.

Gould singing is not the same as having tension. Oscar Peterson sang and he was so relaxed he was almost liquid. There's a difference between music and dopey faces. Some make them for patter, some can't help themselves. And many blow the gaff about themselves, with every needlessly strained muscle.

But here's a freebie for you. Segovia weren't no virtuoso. No sir. A fine player but always he seemed 'at it' when the music needed him. He faked it too much. His technique was fragile and shallow. Better than me? Big deal.

He was a monster presence and a good player but it was always about him.

Nuance? You need to get that head injury looked at.



aeolus -> RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (Nov. 5 2013 16:40:42)

How does one describe the color red to a blind man?



Ricardo -> RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (Nov. 5 2013 17:03:18)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

How does one describe the color red to a blind man?


with fire and cinnamon. [;)]



Paul Magnussen -> RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (Nov. 5 2013 17:55:54)

quote:

Hey, it really was a question I asked, I don't mean to offend.


No offense taken.

quote:

Of course, I was NOT there and would love to see more footage if it exists perhaps my opinion would change?


Unfortunately the available footage seems to be very little and of crappy quality.

A few years ago I read that Music on Earth (the company that put out the Julian Bream DVD My Life in Music) was doing a similar project on Presti/Lagoya, but they couldn’t get the funding, even from the French government; so the footage is just stuck there in the vaults.

quote:

And duarte...gosh that brings back bad memories from college of
playing his weird ensemble pieces.


I knew Jack quite well. I wrote to him with a question about his Bach transcriptions when I was a schoolboy, and it lead to a correspondence. He asked me to introduce myself if I came backstage after a Wigmore concert, and we became friends. He became my reviews editor when I started writing for Guitar International.

He could be a strange old stick, and he tried to compose in all the different styles out there, which was probably a mistake.

IMHO his best piece is his Variations on a French Nursery Song, which he wrote for Presti/Lagoya and which I heard them play at the Wigmore (they’d learnt it in some insanely short amount of time, like maybe a week). It was stunning; but she died before they had a chance to record it.

Jack said it was so difficult that he didn’t think anyone would ever play it again; but in fact a Swedish duo produce a beautiful recording a few years later.

I looked at YouTube but there’s only one version: The Sakura Guitar Duo:





aeolus -> RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (Nov. 5 2013 21:49:16)

Here is Alice somewhat more youthful demonstrating the Presti technique in a less extreme form.




z6 -> RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (Nov. 6 2013 5:20:45)

Duarte's music was a heap of self-conscious, quasi-intellectual s h i t. (No offense.)

Christ, we have a guitar player right here, on this very thread who composes actual, beautiful, culturally innovative, vibrant music. Not just 'better' than Duarte but it is actual music. He is not delusional.

Then he plays it, himself, like Zombie Barrios. But you rattle on about piffle.

Harmonics? That's the nuance? Are you the guy that didn't know Paco played with his fingers? Are you Segovia? (Sorry Paul I'm addressing Aoleus now.)

Blind? Indeed. That was my point. I do not have to hold Paco on a stick, Ricardo's playing demonstrates the level of natural nuance required to play any flamenco at all.

Tremolo, for example, is considered a virtuoso technique in classical guitar. It is a basic technique in flamenco.

You keep mistaking classical music for classical guitar. Is the total sum of all classical music more noteworthy than flamenco? Yes. Is Bach and Beethoven and Britten and the rest better than Ricardo? (Sorry Ricardo. You'll have to kill yourself now.)

The state of virtuosity (otherwise known as bashing a guitar while drunk) is a requirement of all basic flamenco techniques.



Arash -> RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (Nov. 6 2013 13:36:59)

whats up with all these recent weird comparisons of classical and flamenco guitarists anyway? two different worlds imo and totally meaningless to try to compare something specific from one genre with something else of the other genre. these discussions somehow force people to post a justification (me included), where there is actually no need for any justification at all.

I don't go to delcamp and post something like "classical guitarists are inexpressive, why don't they play a simple rasgueado from while to while to have some excitement" , that would be a nonsence and misplaced comment, since classical music is something else and they don't need a rasgueado and a rasguedo would probably sound like sh.it during a bach concert or whatever.

when i want to hear classical music (which i actually enjoy more and more recently as some kind of recreational activity for my brain and musicallity), i completely switch from one mode (flamenco) to another mode (classical) and appreciate the difference and only then can enjoy it. don't understand why other can't and always try to connect and compare.



Ruphus -> RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (Nov. 6 2013 13:47:14)

Well said.

Ruphus



aeolus -> RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (Nov. 6 2013 14:03:11)

quote:

whats up with all these recent weird comparisons of classical and flamenco guitarists anyway?


It was meant to be humorous as I thought the title and the reference to mas macho made clear- sigh.. There was a time in Baroque period when contests between 2 musicians was common. Nowadays classical guitar competitions are important part of a young players life and placings are part of one's CV. I don't know if they occur in flamenco. But everyone here gets too uptight for some reason.



mark indigo -> RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (Nov. 6 2013 14:07:40)

quote:

There was a time in Baroque period when contests between 2 musicians was common. Nowadays classical guitar competitions are important part of a young players life and placings are part of one's CV. I don't know if they occur in flamenco.


classical guitar competitions are contests between.... classical guitarists. Yes, there are flamenco guitar competitions.... but they are between flamenco guitarists....

Manolo Franco won the Giraldillo in 1984. I think the clincher was this Guajira (though I understand contestants were judged in three sections, solo guitar, cante accompaniment, and baile accompaniment, and had to excel in all three)



this Guajira also has a few notes of harmonics in it

quote:

But everyone here gets too uptight for some reason.
well, I wonder why that is....?

Could be 'cos you seem to be continuously rubbishing flamenco guitar, and comparing it negatively to classical guitar, at the same time as obviously not really knowing anything about it (yes, there are flamenco guitar competitions) or even listening to it much (my CDs ...are mostly those of Vicente Amigo) - on a flamenco forum whose membership is nearly all guitarists.... think about it



mark indigo -> RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (Nov. 6 2013 14:37:05)

this vid has "giraldillo" in the title, dunno if it's actually from the competition




mark indigo -> RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (Nov. 6 2013 14:38:21)

another suit and tie




mark indigo -> RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (Nov. 6 2013 14:41:18)

this one looks like the same suit and tie as the solea, so maybe this is from the giraldillo too??




mezzo -> RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (Nov. 6 2013 14:44:51)

quote:

whats up with all these recent weird comparisons of classical and flamenco guitarists anyway?

Wait until someone post a vid from a classical guru and challenges us, flamenco guitarist (on a flamenco foro) to replay that piece...

it happened a while ago if I remember correctly [8|]

maybe it's time to rebrand this place FlamClassicForo since most of the classical topics related (that aren't few btw) landed in the general section.



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