What a heel (Full Version)

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El Burdo -> What a heel (Oct. 22 2013 11:48:37)

Sorry to be so dim here but...[8D]

I have bought a neck heel block from Madinter and I can't see how to use it. Normally I would build the heel using the neck wood, but evidently can't from the wood they supply, as it's too short. Problem is, the block seems to be too small as well. If the sides of the heel are diagonally straight going from the bottom of the heel to the top, it isn't wide enough. If I rotate the wood (into virtually slab sawn orientation), it isn't tall enough. If I use it, the curve at the point the neck joins the heel will be pretty fierce and not the same as the rest of the neck.

Naturally, I am missing something, despite having pondered for a while now. Could you please enlighten me?





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estebanana -> RE: What a heel (Oct. 22 2013 12:26:49)

First you need to stop making love to it on those flowery bed spreads and drag it into the shop and photograph it on the bench.

Then measure how wide your neck is at the body join, probably about 62 to 64 mm. Think the block does not have to be that wide because the heel in 'plan view' that is looking from the top, tapers to the heel cap.



El Burdo -> RE: What a heel (Oct. 22 2013 13:40:35)

Workshop? Good one!

Nonetheless, here they are on the IKEA Bekvam trolley that serves as my bench...[:(]

The measurements are from the Barbero drawing. The tall one is what I would expect to use, but it's not wide enough unless I do something clever, the nature of which has yet to occur to me. The wide one is fine, though I don't like the grain direction - but even including the depth of the top and the bottom it won't make it to even 80mm.

This piece of wood is not big enough is it!?





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Jeff Highland -> RE: What a heel (Oct. 22 2013 20:38:53)

The tall one is a bit stingy but should work fine if you draw it up with a 25mm wide heel and especially if you use a concave curve to the heel side as is normal



El Burdo -> RE: What a heel (Oct. 22 2013 20:52:47)

Thanks Jeff.

I was wondering about this, but 25mm!? It seems to be about 48 on the Barbero drawing. Is the footprint (contact area) not desperately critical then, I assume?

Would it be stupid/off the wall/poor making - to curve the inside-box part of the heel?



Jeff Highland -> RE: What a heel (Oct. 22 2013 21:01:18)

Ah I see what you mean the foot will be wider than the heel

I've been building separate neck guitars lately...

40mm is fine for the foot, you will probably just make that



El Burdo -> RE: What a heel (Oct. 22 2013 21:28:03)

OK, thanks. I'll have a measure. It does seem a bit 'sharp' of Madinter to provide wood that won't allow you to copy drawings. Even then, their wood's measurements evidently don't include the saw cut. Everything on the block is >2mm smaller. But... that's the purchaser's problem.
To be honest I might just end up sacrificing another neck to make the heel as the wood is good value. I'm not relaxed enough yet to take risks!



estebanana -> RE: What a heel (Oct. 23 2013 0:13:29)

quote:

OK, thanks. I'll have a measure. It does seem a bit 'sharp' of Madinter to provide wood that won't allow you to copy drawings.



It's doable, but I'd say that is one stingy block of wood. Cutting it a close with giving the customer some extra meat to work with.

I would mention that if ordering again.



tele -> RE: What a heel (Oct. 23 2013 11:04:36)

According to a luthier who I know(been doing guitars for around 40 years) the size of the heel affects the sound, the smaller the better. This is the way he builds them:


just on the subject of heels...

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El Burdo -> RE: What a heel (Oct. 23 2013 11:07:31)

quote:

but I'd say that is one stingy block of wood
So desune. I was really surprised at the support I received from the Sales team - including their making trans-European phone calls to my mobile phone! It was excellent. At that time they were having major problems with their new website and they probably couldn't risk losing orders. Since then, no contact from the people one complains to, despite support from the sales staff.

Anyway, it seems from your responses that I wasn't wrong in thinking the block was small - too small for me - so thanks.

Hi Tele - blimey. Is that an integrated neck + heel block? Looks good.



estebanana -> RE: What a heel (Oct. 23 2013 11:36:08)

quote:

According to a luthier who I know(been doing guitars for around 40 years) the size of the heel affects the sound, the smaller the better.


Hmm, I'd say maybe, maybe not. There are plenty of monster Spanish guitars with tall heel caps and robust heels that disprove any anecdotal maxims based on small heels being better. Seriously. Although that is a wonderfully carved and elegant heel.
It's really more about the top.



estebanana -> RE: What a heel (Oct. 23 2013 11:41:52)

quote:

So desune. I was really surprised at the support I received from the Sales team - including their making trans-European phone calls to my mobile phone! It was excellent. At that time they were having major problems with their new website and they probably couldn't risk losing orders. Since then, no contact from the people one complains to, despite support from the sales staff.

Anyway, it seems from your responses that I wasn't wrong in thinking the block was small - too small for me - so thanks.


It's kind of nice you put yourself out there with a question about materials and what would be considered standard or not. I hope you figured out which questions to ask next time you order materials.

I'm very interested in seeing how your latest guitars are progressing when you feel like it is time to show them.



El Burdo -> RE: What a heel (Oct. 23 2013 14:46:15)

quote:

when you feel like it is time to show them

You make it sound like a Equestrian Trial! - "..and coming in on the left we have El Burdo, with his sprightly Santos Hernandez-type flamenca. A little unrefined perhaps but young enough to develop. But, what's this?...oh, that heel block is just inadequate. I take it all back. Shoot it."
I'll think about it at the end of this latest one. They no longer look like they've been made with an axe, but construction-wise I still don't really have anything to go on but guesswork.

Material-wise, I have decided not to buy wood imagining the dimensions but actually to read them before deciding. The necks I bought were short and obviously required a heel but it was only by luck that I'd included one in that order just to investigate sticking it on a mahogany neck, like THE '51 evidently has. All the neck blanks, yes ALL SIX neck blanks I have bought had enough material for the heel and for the back braces and even the banding and I just 'assumed'. I haven't figured out what questions to ask when buying tops. Based on sound. Because no-one knows. [;)]



tele -> RE: What a heel (Oct. 23 2013 17:43:30)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

It's really more about the top.


sure but you can experiment like he did by shaving slowly the heel and see if it improves the sound quality as he did, that's what he bases his claims on.



Sean -> RE: What a heel (Oct. 23 2013 23:41:44)

Or maybe it was just the guitar top settling in while he was monkeying with the heel, and this was perceived as an improvement in the sound.



estebanana -> RE: What a heel (Oct. 24 2013 6:17:47)

quote:

Or maybe it was just the guitar top settling in while he was monkeying with the heel, and this was perceived as an improvement in the sound.


I'd agree.

But there are neck resonances and changes in sound when the neck changes flexibility and mass. Only the way I understand it is that it has more to do with the larger part of the neck rather than the heel.

It is possible making the heel smaller would release the neck to be less stiff where it connects to the body, but that is a really small adjustment and who knows, maybe some guitars want to be stiffer there.

These kinds of exchanges are difficult because Tele is brings up what someone else said about removing material from the heel. This is out of context of how the maker was thinking about it so the information is difficult to process into something useful. Like where did be begin and how did he chart the progress? Without that information it's difficult to evaluate the idea with any reference points or objectivity.



estebanana -> RE: What a heel (Oct. 24 2013 6:31:13)

quote:

when you feel like it is time to show them

You make it sound like a Equestrian Trial! - "..and coming in on the left we have El Burdo, with his sprightly Santos Hernandez-type flamenca. A little unrefined perhaps but young enough to develop. But, what's this?...oh, that heel block is just inadequate. I take it all back. Shoot it."
I'll think about it at the end of this latest one. They no longer look like they've been made with an axe, but construction-wise I still don't really have anything to go on but guesswork.


Hmm, I was merely encouraging you to show your work, not trying to make you into Roy Rodgers and Trigger out for a ride.



El Burdo -> RE: What a heel (Oct. 24 2013 8:44:32)

OK, as things currently seem to be, it might be necessary to say I appreciated what you said, and that I was joking. [:)].
These show trials, although they sound like something from Stalinist USSR are an institution for a certain type of Brit where grown people chivvy and goad horses across a series of pointless sharp right turns over 3 foot water jumps whilst dressed in waist hugging and fluted jackets and tights; well, the men. This is called 'showing'.
The same thing goes for dogs, but then I would have referred to Hijo de El Burdo as small and sharp with a pug nose and a propensity for taking a leak on the judges feet, like some other people around here.

"Oh, give me a home...."



estebanana -> RE: What a heel (Oct. 24 2013 11:47:24)

I'm sure when you are ready you will rate Best in Show and your guitar will be seen to have a good disposition. You will be able to avoid that spinal tap procedure.



tele -> RE: What a heel (Oct. 24 2013 11:55:10)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sean

Or maybe it was just the guitar top settling in while he was monkeying with the heel, and this was perceived as an improvement in the sound.



I doubt this would go unnoticed with 40 years of guitar building experience.

Whatever it is, one can experiment with the size of heel if interested.

quote:

Hi Tele - blimey. Is that an integrated neck + heel block? Looks good


I doubt it but indeed it's difficult to tell from that picture



Stephen Eden -> RE: What a heel (Oct. 24 2013 18:52:18)

Hey, El Burdo

I might be able to send you up something if you are interested. It would only be a bit that would widen the heel enough for you to use with the other bit you have. My only thoughts is that the colours may not match up all that well. Maybe something like 82x25x110? let me know if you're interested



El Burdo -> RE: What a heel (Oct. 24 2013 19:41:46)

HI SEden, PM-ed you.



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